Aug 31, 2015, 6:08 am
Last edit by: beltway
Changes to Amtrak Guest Rewards in 2016
Amtrak Guest Rewards (AGR) underwent numerous changes beginning on January 24, 2016. This wiki attempts to provide a summary of those changes (and Amtrak's ongoing unannounced revisions of the rules). For additional details, see the Amtrak website.
Table of Contents
Earning Status
AGR altered its expiration policy, which previously required paid travel once every 36 months. Effective August 27, 2015, any points-earning or redemption activity will reset the 36-month clock. Effective April 2019, points expire after 24 months of inactivity.
As today, AGR MasterCard cardholders' points will not expire as long as their credit card accounts are open. AGR has moved its co-branded credit card relationship to Bank of America, which now offers two different versions of the card, including one with no annual fee. All Chase AGR MasterCards were converted to Chase Freedom cards on September 30, 2015. Post-Rollout Issues/Unknowns
It remains unclear whether these are merely IT errors or unannounced program devaluations, particularly as in some cases the contradict explicitly stated terms and conditions.
Amtrak Guest Rewards (AGR) underwent numerous changes beginning on January 24, 2016. This wiki attempts to provide a summary of those changes (and Amtrak's ongoing unannounced revisions of the rules). For additional details, see the Amtrak website.
Table of Contents
Earning Status
As in the past, members earn Tier Qualifying Points (TQP) for paid travel at the rate of 2 TQP per dollar. With the 2016 changes, however, AGR has eliminated In addition, AGR now provides new class-of-service TQP bonuses: 25% for qualifying travel in Business class and 50% for qualifying travel in Acela First class. (As noted below, passengers will also earn redeemable AGR points in the same amount.)
The number of TQP required to earn status remains the same: Benefits for each status level, including the Tier Bonus on cash fares (see below), remain the same.
Earning AGR Points Redeemable for Travel- the 100 TQP minimum (so fares under $50 earn fewer TQP), and
- the Acela "select city pairs" TQP minimums for Business class (formerly 500 TQP) and First class (formerly 750 TQP); see post #83
The number of TQP required to earn status remains the same:
- Select - 5,000 TQP
- Select Plus - 10,000 TQP
- Select Executive - 20,000 TQP
Members continue to earn redeemable AGR points for paid travel (except as discussed below in this section) at the rate of 2 points per dollar, plus a new 25% point bonus for qualifying travel in Business class and 50% for qualifying travel in Acela First class. Sleeper-car tickets do not earn a bonus.
With the 2016 changes, however, AGR eliminates In addition to base points, members with status continue to earn Tier Bonus redeemable AGR points (i.e., not TQP) at the same level as in 2015: As was the case before, members do not earn points for Amtrak 7000-series Thruway services or the Canadian portion of joint Amtrak/VIA Rail Canada services.
Redeeming for TravelWith the 2016 changes, however, AGR eliminates
- the 100 point minimum (so fares under $50 earn fewer points), and
- the Acela "select city pairs" minimums for Business class (previously 500 points) and First class (previously 750 points)
- Select - 25%
- Select Plus - 50%
- Select Executive - 100%
For 2016, redemption rules have changed drastically. AGR has discontinued its fixed-point awards and zone system, transitioning instead to a revenue-based system. Under the new program, the points required for an award ticket--including multi-ride tickets and monthly passes--are, with some exceptions noted below, proportional to the cash price of the ticket.
In general, an AGR point is worth roughly 2.9 cents for non-Acela travel and 2.56 cents for Acela. (For example, 5,141 points are redeemable for a WAS-NYP regional one-way $149 ticket.) However, several new restrictions result in a lower yield for award redemptions:
Note: Reward tickets booked before 1/24/16 are subject to the new redemption policy if modified or canceled on or after that date.
Redemption options: With the 2016 changes, AGR members are able to redeem points for multi-ride tickets or monthly passes as well as standard one-way & round-trip tickets.
Sleeper-car travel: The number of points required for sleeper-car travel is calculated using the prevailing fare, which reflects the actual number of passengers occupying the room. Amtrak assesses a single accommodation charge for the room, plus one adult/child rail fare per occupant.
Auto Train travel: Members are able to redeem points for Auto Train travel using the same process as for other itineraries. Vehicle(s) are priced the same as other portions of the itinerary per standard Amtrak Auto Train policies. Priority Vehicle Offloading may not be redeemed using points.
Credit card rebate: Holders of either new Bank of America co-branded credit card (see below) receive a 5% points rebates on Amtrak award tickets. This is the same as the benefit offered by the recently discontinued Chase card.
Blackout dateseliminated: On the plus side, AGR will eliminate award redemption blackout dates and Acela time-of-day restrictions. When the 2016 changes were announced, AGR claimed that blackout dates were being eliminated. As of January 24, 2016, the AGR website still makes that claim. Unfortunately, it is a lie.
On January 24--the day the new program changes took effect--AGR Insider posted new information making clear that the blackout-date policy has not been abandoned:
Amtrak quietly added similar language to the website in early February 2016. The website also indicates that the point costs for "peak travel" dates and times may be increased in addition to any increase resulting resulting from a higher cash fare. To date, additional points costs of 50% and 100% have been observed on certain itineraries.
Under the old program rules, AGR published an advance list of blackout dates. AGR has provided no public information specifying the "peak travel dates or times" when general members are charged additional points or blacked out entirely from redeeming for travel.
Cancellation penalties: Canceling or modifying a standard ticket incurs an automatic 10% penalty. Doing so less than 24 hours in advance for non-sleeper tickets (or 14 days for sleeper-car travel) results in a "close-in" penalty of an additional 10% (i.e., a total penalty of 20%) for most travelers; however, this additional 10%/close-in penalty does not apply to Select Executive members.
No-shows result in 100% forfeiture for the missed segment, as well as cancellation and forfeiture for any later segments on the same itinerary. (As a result, it is less risky to book round-trip travel as two separate one-way tickets and, where possible, to book passengers individually rather than on a single shared ticket.)
For multiple-segment tickets, you can cancel the remainder even after travel begins. Thus, on a round-trip ticket you can cancel the return leg even if you have already begun the outbound leg.
Points & cash redemption: AGR has indicated that a points+cash redemption option will be introduced in 2016. No details are available, and it is unclear how this will work with respect to earning TQP and redeemable points.
Points ExpirationIn general, an AGR point is worth roughly 2.9 cents for non-Acela travel and 2.56 cents for Acela. (For example, 5,141 points are redeemable for a WAS-NYP regional one-way $149 ticket.) However, several new restrictions result in a lower yield for award redemptions:
- Minimum award pricing: Regardless of the cash fare, a non-Acela award ticket costs a minimum of 800 AGR points. As a result, using AGR points for such tickets with a cash price under $24 (e.g., LNC-PHL or BWI-WAS) results in lower yields.
Acela award tickets cost a minimum of 4,000 points. Using AGR points for Acela tickets costing less than $103 results in lower yields.
- No redemption for Saver awards: Per AGR's FT representative, members cannot redeem points for tickets at the least-expensive Saver rate. For instance, even if a $52 Saver WAS-NYP cash fare is available, points can be used only to purchase tickets at the equivalent of an $86 Value fare or higher (resulting in a yield of 1.75 cents/point at best).
- Peak travel dates/times: As discussed below under "Blackout Dates," Amtrak has quietly introduced a "peak travel" penalty in which certain high-demand itineraries (not published in advance) will cost 50% or even 100% more points than would normally correspond to the available cash fare.
- Most discount fares inapplicable: Under the 2016 program, AGR points are redeemable for tickets based only on the Adult or Child price, and not at the equivalent of Senior, AAA, or other discounted fares. (See post #83.)
- As was the case before, members may not redeem points for Amtrak 7000-series Thruway services or the Canadian portion of joint Amtrak/VIA Rail Canada services.
Redemption options: With the 2016 changes, AGR members are able to redeem points for multi-ride tickets or monthly passes as well as standard one-way & round-trip tickets.
Sleeper-car travel: The number of points required for sleeper-car travel is calculated using the prevailing fare, which reflects the actual number of passengers occupying the room. Amtrak assesses a single accommodation charge for the room, plus one adult/child rail fare per occupant.
Auto Train travel: Members are able to redeem points for Auto Train travel using the same process as for other itineraries. Vehicle(s) are priced the same as other portions of the itinerary per standard Amtrak Auto Train policies. Priority Vehicle Offloading may not be redeemed using points.
Credit card rebate: Holders of either new Bank of America co-branded credit card (see below) receive a 5% points rebates on Amtrak award tickets. This is the same as the benefit offered by the recently discontinued Chase card.
Blackout dates
On January 24--the day the new program changes took effect--AGR Insider posted new information making clear that the blackout-date policy has not been abandoned:
you may find limited availability on peak travel dates or times and it is possible that not every seat will be available for redemption. When redeeming points for trips during peak travel dates and times, some itineraries may be available only to our Select Plus and Select Executive members.
Under the old program rules, AGR published an advance list of blackout dates. AGR has provided no public information specifying the "peak travel dates or times" when general members are charged additional points or blacked out entirely from redeeming for travel.
Cancellation penalties: Canceling or modifying a standard ticket incurs an automatic 10% penalty. Doing so less than 24 hours in advance for non-sleeper tickets (or 14 days for sleeper-car travel) results in a "close-in" penalty of an additional 10% (i.e., a total penalty of 20%) for most travelers; however, this additional 10%/close-in penalty does not apply to Select Executive members.
No-shows result in 100% forfeiture for the missed segment, as well as cancellation and forfeiture for any later segments on the same itinerary. (As a result, it is less risky to book round-trip travel as two separate one-way tickets and, where possible, to book passengers individually rather than on a single shared ticket.)
For multiple-segment tickets, you can cancel the remainder even after travel begins. Thus, on a round-trip ticket you can cancel the return leg even if you have already begun the outbound leg.
CAUTION: The new policy is worded to imply that reservation "modification" and "cancellation" are treated differently. A "modification" ostensibly triggers a penalty only of "any fare difference returned to member," implying that changing to a more expensive fare should involve no penalty and changing to a less expensive fare should be subject to a penalty only on the refunded points difference.
Unfortunately, there are now multiple reports that there is no difference in practice: AGR is treating any change as a full cancellation and rebooking, and penalizing accordingly. This includes asking to be rebooked in a different room on the same train (at the same price), changing dates, or altering routing. It is unclear how the new policy will be applied to travel affected by service disruptions such as weather-related train cancellations.
For complete details on the 2016 change rules, including the special rules for multi-ride tickets and monthly passes, see the AGR website.Unfortunately, there are now multiple reports that there is no difference in practice: AGR is treating any change as a full cancellation and rebooking, and penalizing accordingly. This includes asking to be rebooked in a different room on the same train (at the same price), changing dates, or altering routing. It is unclear how the new policy will be applied to travel affected by service disruptions such as weather-related train cancellations.
Points & cash redemption: AGR has indicated that a points+cash redemption option will be introduced in 2016. No details are available, and it is unclear how this will work with respect to earning TQP and redeemable points.
As today, AGR MasterCard cardholders' points will not expire as long as their credit card accounts are open. AGR has moved its co-branded credit card relationship to Bank of America, which now offers two different versions of the card, including one with no annual fee. All Chase AGR MasterCards were converted to Chase Freedom cards on September 30, 2015.
- Class-of-service bonuses have been posting initially as non-TQPs, although subsequent data points suggest there is currently a delay of ~12 days in proper crediting.
- Agents have claimed that any change incurs the 10/20% penalty (up to and including asking for a changed room assignment) on the full value of the ticket, rather than just anything involving a reduction in price being penalized 10/20% on the changed portion
It remains unclear whether these are merely IT errors or unannounced program devaluations, particularly as in some cases the contradict explicitly stated terms and conditions.
Introducing the next stop for Amtrak Guest Rewards
Aug 27, 2015, 5:39 pm
#46
Join Date: Jan 2014
Programs: Amtrak Guest Rewards (SE), Virgin America Elevate, Hyatt Gold Passport (Platinum), VIA Preference
Posts: 3,134
I posted on this about two weeks back (link):
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/25269386-post29.html
"Tune" is not the four-letter word I would describe this as being "up". Really, I think we made it clear that the blow-smoke marketing wasn't going to play well here when the leak happened and it's a hair insulting to see that AGR waltzed along with it (not realizing that the band was playing jazz). To quote my post on the changes, "saccharine-coating them in positive-sounding euphemisms is likely to make the more jaded of us ignore any positive elements of the change out of cynical experience". Yup, not shocked.
With that being said, I've talked with a friend about whether Washington and Oregon (who, no real other way to put it, got roundly screwed in this) might seriously look at throwing AGR off and pairing with Alaska Airlines (they had a similar arrangement back in the 90s) and I'm going to talk with some folks in California as well. Since those are state trains, there is plenty of room for them to turn on AGR effectively turning on them.
Edit: Something else states ain't gonna like? Points runs may not be good for AGR's bottom line, but they certainly buffer pax counts in a number of states (IL, OR, WA, CA all leap to mind) and that's going to go *THUMP*...which will make for crappy headline numbers after January.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/25269386-post29.html
"Tune" is not the four-letter word I would describe this as being "up". Really, I think we made it clear that the blow-smoke marketing wasn't going to play well here when the leak happened and it's a hair insulting to see that AGR waltzed along with it (not realizing that the band was playing jazz). To quote my post on the changes, "saccharine-coating them in positive-sounding euphemisms is likely to make the more jaded of us ignore any positive elements of the change out of cynical experience". Yup, not shocked.
With that being said, I've talked with a friend about whether Washington and Oregon (who, no real other way to put it, got roundly screwed in this) might seriously look at throwing AGR off and pairing with Alaska Airlines (they had a similar arrangement back in the 90s) and I'm going to talk with some folks in California as well. Since those are state trains, there is plenty of room for them to turn on AGR effectively turning on them.
Edit: Something else states ain't gonna like? Points runs may not be good for AGR's bottom line, but they certainly buffer pax counts in a number of states (IL, OR, WA, CA all leap to mind) and that's going to go *THUMP*...which will make for crappy headline numbers after January.
Last edited by GrayAnderson; Aug 27, 2015 at 5:53 pm
Aug 27, 2015, 6:17 pm
#47
In Memoriam
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: New York, NY, USA
Programs: HH Diamond, Amtrak Exec
Posts: 3,262
"Tune" is not the four-letter word I would describe this as being "up". Really, I think we made it clear that the blow-smoke marketing wasn't going to play well here when the leak happened and it's a hair insulting to see that AGR waltzed along with it (not realizing that the band was playing jazz). To quote my post on the changes, "saccharine-coating them in positive-sounding euphemisms is likely to make the more jaded of us ignore any positive elements of the change out of cynical experience". Yup, not shocked.
If this had leaked two months ago, that would be different. There would have been time for AGR to reconsider the approach. Not sure that the marketing guys would have let them reconsider; but at least there would have been a chance. Expecting that our minor protest 2 weeks before the release of a major ad campaign would change things is simply not realistic. Sorry!
Second, the members & readers of this forum are a very tiny percentage of AGR's total membership. While AGR, and in particular our friend Anthony Rizos (aka AGR Insider), have in the past listened to comments on this forum and taken them into consideration prior to big decisions; this is far larger than the small amount of representation this forum has within the AGR member database.
If I had to hazard a guess, at best we probably represent 5% of the total AGR membership. And that is nothing when put up against the overall concerns of Amtrak and how it must deal with the 500+ micro managers in Congress.
I'm not happy with the changes myself. This will severely impact me going forward. But we've also got to live in the real world. Other rewards programs are going this route; Congress is always breathing down Amtrak's back; and this is much bigger than the representation of AGR members posting here. I'm sure that most AGR members had no idea that this was coming until they got today's email.
Not trying to burst anyone's bubble, but this is the reality of things.
Ps. I don't think that Amtrak California, or the Pacific NW, will be able to resist the pressure to remain in the AGR program. And their loss if they did resist wouldn't be enough to make Amtrak rethink things.
PPs. This is all personal opinion and knowledge of how things work. None of what I've written is inside information.
Aug 27, 2015, 7:29 pm
#48
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: PDX
Programs: DL DM, AS MVP 100K, Amtrak peon, Colbert Lifetime Platinum
Posts: 4,534
On the earning side, the lack of bonus for sleepers is truly baffling. I don't know if it was an oversight or an intentional decision, but sleepers really should earn 50% bonus like Acela First. Since sleeper redemptions are being gutted (except for edge cases like relatively short distances over two zones), increasing the earning factor would be a very a nice consolation price for paid trips members will be taking that would have been redemptions in the current scheme.
As for the 100-point minimum per segment, that was basically the only "bone" AGR threw at those of us outside the NEC. Eliminating it rubs salt in the wound for sure. A better compromise would be to cap the earning at 2 segments/day instead of 4, and/or keep the 100-point minimum for TQP but not earned points (much like United kept mileage-based PQM earning).
Otherwise, it's very bleak out here in the Bay Area as an S+. Yes, there's United Club access, but no Amtrak lounges, no routes within hundreds of miles on which to use upgrade coupons, and generally poor value for the companion coupons.
Moving to a fixed-rebate redemption system overall will definitely decrease my engagement with the program and assuredly kill whatever motivation I had to maintain S+. In general, I'll become very apathetic about AGR. It's a great program for Acela regulars traveling on OPM (as it always has been). Otherwise, it will be so oversimplified as to be perfectly designed for the lazy-minded. Fixed earning and redeeming is almost literally a no-brainer (in a bad way). Yes, "gamers" had it too easy in some cases. But the sweet spots made AGR feel relevant in my life, definitely induced spending, and I could credibly evangelize to locals who never rode Amtrak that the rewards program was a good reason to become a choice rider. No longer.
Oh well... At least the points+cash option is promising as a potential remaining sweet spot. There might also continue to be some value in purchasing points (especially during promotional periods). And I remain cautiously optimistic that the new credit card(s) will help. I'm hoping for tier-like benefits, fee waivers, continued redemption rebates, etc. Clarification on Chase UR transfers would certainly be welcome.
Regarding the change penalties, I'm surprised there isn't even the option to pay the cash, that it will be points only. (Though perhaps the cash conversion would be unfavorable anyway.)
One change that would help a lot with redemptions (but I'm sure would never happen) would be to plug in to member discounts. If AAA/NARP, etc. discounts could apply to points bookings, that would be a friendly manifestation of the idea that everything with the program is purely transactional now and dollar-based.
Finally, regarding sleeper redemption rates, I'd guess that it'll be "WYSIWYG" with multiple pax as the other redemptions will be. In other words, it'll be 34.5x the prevailing sleeper fare for two pax (base coach fare x2 + accommodation charge).
As for the 100-point minimum per segment, that was basically the only "bone" AGR threw at those of us outside the NEC. Eliminating it rubs salt in the wound for sure. A better compromise would be to cap the earning at 2 segments/day instead of 4, and/or keep the 100-point minimum for TQP but not earned points (much like United kept mileage-based PQM earning).
Otherwise, it's very bleak out here in the Bay Area as an S+. Yes, there's United Club access, but no Amtrak lounges, no routes within hundreds of miles on which to use upgrade coupons, and generally poor value for the companion coupons.
Moving to a fixed-rebate redemption system overall will definitely decrease my engagement with the program and assuredly kill whatever motivation I had to maintain S+. In general, I'll become very apathetic about AGR. It's a great program for Acela regulars traveling on OPM (as it always has been). Otherwise, it will be so oversimplified as to be perfectly designed for the lazy-minded. Fixed earning and redeeming is almost literally a no-brainer (in a bad way). Yes, "gamers" had it too easy in some cases. But the sweet spots made AGR feel relevant in my life, definitely induced spending, and I could credibly evangelize to locals who never rode Amtrak that the rewards program was a good reason to become a choice rider. No longer.
Oh well... At least the points+cash option is promising as a potential remaining sweet spot. There might also continue to be some value in purchasing points (especially during promotional periods). And I remain cautiously optimistic that the new credit card(s) will help. I'm hoping for tier-like benefits, fee waivers, continued redemption rebates, etc. Clarification on Chase UR transfers would certainly be welcome.
Regarding the change penalties, I'm surprised there isn't even the option to pay the cash, that it will be points only. (Though perhaps the cash conversion would be unfavorable anyway.)
One change that would help a lot with redemptions (but I'm sure would never happen) would be to plug in to member discounts. If AAA/NARP, etc. discounts could apply to points bookings, that would be a friendly manifestation of the idea that everything with the program is purely transactional now and dollar-based.
Finally, regarding sleeper redemption rates, I'd guess that it'll be "WYSIWYG" with multiple pax as the other redemptions will be. In other words, it'll be 34.5x the prevailing sleeper fare for two pax (base coach fare x2 + accommodation charge).
Aug 27, 2015, 7:30 pm
#49
Join Date: Apr 2015
Programs: United Global Services, Amtrak Select Executive
Posts: 4,090
AGR is going in the same direction as airline FF programs, which is to reward high spend travelers at the expense of discount travelers. There is nothing intrinsically fair or unfair about this. It is a business decision.
Aug 27, 2015, 9:39 pm
#51
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: East Coast, USA
Posts: 1,032
If 500/750 city pair TQP are gone, are they confident enough to predict that the NEC riders won't bolt to the air shuttles?
Aug 27, 2015, 9:47 pm
#52
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Programs: United 'Cattle Car', American, JetBlue Airways, Marriott Rewards 'Gold', Amtrak AGR 'Select'
Posts: 197
Anthony - a question to you my friend
It might sound good - but would this be a "good" deal for me. I usually take Amtrak's "San Joaquin" trains between Bakersfield and Lodi/Sacramento. I use 1500 points currently per trip, which in a round trip scenario I cash usually 3000 points with some points back as I'm a AGR Select member. I did crunch the new calculator for future trips and it appears I would spend only 2484 points - ($72 round trip ticket in coach) so, if I'm correct I would benefit from this new revenue based plan? Confirm with me. Also, I have a chase Amtrak AGR Credit card MasterCard - I heard Chase will no
Longer be the bank - this is my only chase card. Would I automatically go to the new bank, or have to file a new application with the new issuer? I'm assuming Chase would forward my current card to one of their other cards? Please confirm. Im a person that likes change, but as I'm seeing it, why I left united airlines was because of these changes that only support the haves at the expense of the havenots. Thanks for your time - Joseph Goria
Longer be the bank - this is my only chase card. Would I automatically go to the new bank, or have to file a new application with the new issuer? I'm assuming Chase would forward my current card to one of their other cards? Please confirm. Im a person that likes change, but as I'm seeing it, why I left united airlines was because of these changes that only support the haves at the expense of the havenots. Thanks for your time - Joseph Goria
I am pleased to announce the new Amtrak Guest Rewards program, effective January 24, 2016.
https://www.amtrakguestrewards.com/RideOn
We have heard all of your suggestions for making the program easier, more consistent, and more relevant across the entire Amtrak system. In return, we have made a significant investment in our reservations and ticketing technologies to provide you with a simpler redemption travel experience with better self-service capability, and opportunities to earn more and redeem sooner -- with free travel starting at 4000 points on Acela and starting at just 800 points on other Amtrak services. Gone is the zone map which made the program extremely difficult to understand, automate, and execute. And in many markets and on many services, all possible price points will result in less expensive redemptions than the program currently offers.
We are very excited for the future of AGR, and we're equally just as proud of how far we've come in the last 15 years. Thank you very much for your loyalty to Amtrak. I will monitor this thread for questions and look forward to an open dialogue.
Anthony Rizos
Director, Member Experience Solutions
Amtrak
Washington, D.C.
https://www.amtrakguestrewards.com/RideOn
We have heard all of your suggestions for making the program easier, more consistent, and more relevant across the entire Amtrak system. In return, we have made a significant investment in our reservations and ticketing technologies to provide you with a simpler redemption travel experience with better self-service capability, and opportunities to earn more and redeem sooner -- with free travel starting at 4000 points on Acela and starting at just 800 points on other Amtrak services. Gone is the zone map which made the program extremely difficult to understand, automate, and execute. And in many markets and on many services, all possible price points will result in less expensive redemptions than the program currently offers.
We are very excited for the future of AGR, and we're equally just as proud of how far we've come in the last 15 years. Thank you very much for your loyalty to Amtrak. I will monitor this thread for questions and look forward to an open dialogue.
Anthony Rizos
Director, Member Experience Solutions
Amtrak
Washington, D.C.
Aug 27, 2015, 9:57 pm
#53
Join Date: Jan 2014
Programs: Amtrak Guest Rewards (SE), Virgin America Elevate, Hyatt Gold Passport (Platinum), VIA Preference
Posts: 3,134
First, all of the promotional stuff would have already been done as of two weeks ago. There would have been no way to even reconsider redoing all that material at that point in time. It would have cost way too much and taken too long to redo it.
If this had leaked two months ago, that would be different. There would have been time for AGR to reconsider the approach. Not sure that the marketing guys would have let them reconsider; but at least there would have been a chance. Expecting that our minor protest 2 weeks before the release of a major ad campaign would change things is simply not realistic. Sorry!
If this had leaked two months ago, that would be different. There would have been time for AGR to reconsider the approach. Not sure that the marketing guys would have let them reconsider; but at least there would have been a chance. Expecting that our minor protest 2 weeks before the release of a major ad campaign would change things is simply not realistic. Sorry!
Second, the members & readers of this forum are a very tiny percentage of AGR's total membership. While AGR, and in particular our friend Anthony Rizos (aka AGR Insider), have in the past listened to comments on this forum and taken them into consideration prior to big decisions; this is far larger than the small amount of representation this forum has within the AGR member database.
If I had to hazard a guess, at best we probably represent 5% of the total AGR membership. And that is nothing when put up against the overall concerns of Amtrak and how it must deal with the 500+ micro managers in Congress.
If I had to hazard a guess, at best we probably represent 5% of the total AGR membership. And that is nothing when put up against the overall concerns of Amtrak and how it must deal with the 500+ micro managers in Congress.
I'm not happy with the changes myself. This will severely impact me going forward. But we've also got to live in the real world. Other rewards programs are going this route; Congress is always breathing down Amtrak's back; and this is much bigger than the representation of AGR members posting here. I'm sure that most AGR members had no idea that this was coming until they got today's email.
Not trying to burst anyone's bubble, but this is the reality of things.
Ps. I don't think that Amtrak California, or the Pacific NW, will be able to resist the pressure to remain in the AGR program. And their loss if they did resist wouldn't be enough to make Amtrak rethink things.
PPs. This is all personal opinion and knowledge of how things work. None of what I've written is inside information.
Not trying to burst anyone's bubble, but this is the reality of things.
Ps. I don't think that Amtrak California, or the Pacific NW, will be able to resist the pressure to remain in the AGR program. And their loss if they did resist wouldn't be enough to make Amtrak rethink things.
PPs. This is all personal opinion and knowledge of how things work. None of what I've written is inside information.
I will say that I'm vaguely hopeful there might be a material advantage to the CC (e.g. waiving change penalties). That being said...I'm dumping points and while I may roll up SE this year, it is an open question as to how far I'll crash next year...but it's going to be a ways.
Last edited by GrayAnderson; Aug 27, 2015 at 10:03 pm
Aug 27, 2015, 10:22 pm
#54
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2001
Programs: DL 1 million, AA 1 mil, HH lapsed Diamond, Marriott Plat
Posts: 28,190
It's easy enough to find examples of geographic bias in U.S. airline FF programs. A big one: a redemption US-49 to Hawaii is xx,xxx miles, the same whether it's LAX-HNL or BOS-HNL.
Aug 27, 2015, 10:27 pm
#55
Join Date: Jan 2014
Programs: Amtrak Guest Rewards (SE), Virgin America Elevate, Hyatt Gold Passport (Platinum), VIA Preference
Posts: 3,134
On the other hand, there are plenty of "sour spots" to go around in ill-fought airports (either fortress hubs or midsize cities...DSM was infamous for this for a while, and the fact that one year a sleeper reservation on Amtrak to OSC was cheaper than the cheapest coach flight I could find a few months out was one of the things that put me in Amtrak's customer base for a long time).
Aug 27, 2015, 10:56 pm
#56
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: ONT
Programs: AGR, UA, AA
Posts: 476
For those who manufacture spending, a 2.9 cent guaranteed point value is on the high side compared to the point values of the airlines, not to mention any of the hotels. This program discourages paid travel and encourages MS for shorter trips. Almost all of the sleepers I rode were not completely full or turning people away, even during summer. Now those sleepers will go empty, and those $40 trips I was paying for on corridor trains are now going be paid for with credit card points (either from UR earned from Chase Ink if that is still an option, or from the new AGR credit card by loading Nationwide Buxx or buying Vanilla cards and loading to Redbird), since there is no sense in chasing status anymore.
If I were to go dollar based, I would have done something similar to Southwest with a 1.7 cent to 2 cent redemption value, while upping points earned for train trips to 4 points per dollar (6 with the AGR credit card), thus incentivizing paid train travel and not credit card spend. This is what the revenue-based airline programs like Delta and United do.
If I were to go dollar based, I would have done something similar to Southwest with a 1.7 cent to 2 cent redemption value, while upping points earned for train trips to 4 points per dollar (6 with the AGR credit card), thus incentivizing paid train travel and not credit card spend. This is what the revenue-based airline programs like Delta and United do.
Aug 28, 2015, 12:16 am
#57
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Denver, Colorado
Programs: IHG Spire, Hilton Honors Gold, Marriott Titanium, Mileage Plus Gold
Posts: 1,736
As someone who takes the Pacific Surfliner in Business Class, the loss of 100 point minimum is a big deal. Even with the business class supplement, I'm loosing points. Also, the other corridor trains in California do not have a business class so a loss all around.
Aug 28, 2015, 4:40 am
#59
In Memoriam
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: New York, NY, USA
Programs: HH Diamond, Amtrak Exec
Posts: 3,262
And it sure doesn't excuse the tone-deaf thumbs up next to this post; I sincerely cannot think what Anthony was thinking when he put that up there since it's like a poke in the eye every time I look over here (and likely will be for a few weeks to months depending on how long this thread remains active and on the first page).
It doesn't much matter if he thinks that this new program is a good deal or a bad deal, it doesn't much matter what we think about this new program; if his boss comes to him and says "Anthony, break out the lipstick and dress up that pig as best as you can" then that is what he has to do. Either that or look for a new job.
And seeing as how Anthony wasn't hired to be the spokesperson for AGR on FT, but rather for his incredible computer skills which have benefited all AGR members these past years (and he's done other things that have helped us all with AGR), I'm glad that he choose stay and breakout the lipstick as it were.
Not trying to quantify this really, but again, our voices here are a minor consideration for them; not a major. We'd need every registered FT member, most of whom never poke their heads into this forum, to be protesting before our voices would be loud enough to be heard at the upper levels of Amtrak and perhaps have some influence at changing the program revision.
