GoAmtrak

dilanesp, I'm not understanding your angle here. Slurs against railfans and baseless insults against NARP do not refute the facts: Long-distance trains account for a small fraction of Amtrak's capital budget and, despite their lower absolute ridership and higher operating costs, yield nearly half of the system's actual passenger-miles.

Without sleepers and food service, they would essentially be buses on rails. In a somewhat dated but still relevant analysis of the Empire Builder by the Midwest HSR group (which knows that you need a robust network to feed corridors), Amtrak's own spokesperson puts paid to the notion that outside groups are somehow engaging in hocus-pocus. Direct quote:

The disproportionate revenue impact of sleeper passengers "effectively refutes the argument you sometimes hear that Amtrak shouldn't be operating trains for so-called ‘wealthy leisure travelers'. The first-class travelers make train travel possible for the coach passengers. I'd call that a good deal. The airlines use the same economics to keep their coach fares reasonable."

You should also read up on URPA. They frequently take NARP to task for supposedly not defending long-distance trains enough. URPA's studies are based in the premise that Amtrak vastly understates the national network's potential and overstates its losses by distributing fixed overhead that's mostly concentrated in the Northeast Corridor. The fewer national-network routes there are (especially those with sleepers), the greater the losses.

These discussions about which group prefers which amenities are a foolish distraction from what should be the real conversation: How to expand trains and rail transit in appropriate context across the country.

If you have any substantive disagreements that you'd rather not share in public, feel free to PM me. Otherwise, this forum is known on FT for its supreme comity, a place where everyone is welcome to civil discussion and disagreements.

AlanB

I'm well aware of what NARP is, and there mission isn't to promote sleepers & diners. Their mission is to promote trains; all trains, not just Amtrak.

And they didn't just take casual data release from Amtrak. It was targeted data requested by Congress via the GAO. And the numbers were quite simple; no slight of hand was needed to make things look all nice and rosy for the sleepers. Diners weren't considered in the report.

Amtrak's board doesn't ignore these things when they land on the desk of our Congress people. And seeing as how no critics from Congress challenged the numbers and no one from Amtrak stood in front of Congress to refute the numbers; I'd say that makes the number accurate.

Amtrak cuts these things because it has 500+ micro managers in Congress who demand that they cut these things, without regard to the actual realities of the situation.

And again, the study never said that the sleeper made a profit. Only that they covered their above the rails costs. That means linens, salary of the attendant, coffee, juice, and the other amenities provided. Diners are not part of the discussion.

uppereastsider

I can confirm this does NOT include Acela first. You are still given a proper wine glass.

AlanB

Actually I have seen a wine glass in Acela FC for a very long time. Most attendants seem to serve the wine in a glass tumbler meant more for mixed drinks. Not sure if that's because the wine glasses are gone or if it's just because the tumbler holds more and cuts down on the need for refills. Could also be that the tumbler is more stable than the Acela wine glasses are.

uppereastsider

Ah yes, the tumblers are still here, not long stem glasses. Just was clarifying that there are no plastic cups here

I prefer the tumbler and wonder if it's because of the stability issue - I've never had an issue with the tumbler when leaving to go the bathroom- although I'm always worried I'm going to come back to spilled wine everywhere

physioprof

The Acela first class tumblers are much more stable than a stem glass. Also, they are much cheaper in the long run, because they break much less frequently than stem glasses.

Armani

I have no problem drinking wine from glass tumblers and have been recently using stemless wine glasses at home because my wife seems to break all of our nice wine glasses. I've noticed many airlines now using the stemless glasses because they are much easier to handle not spill. Wine from a glass tumbler is much preferred over a plastic wine glass.

dilanesp

The only metric that matters is profit and loss, not "passenger miles". "Passenger miles" is a metric that is specifically designed to be dishonest (I know, that's a "slur"-- apparently correctly labeling a fatuous argument is a "slur") and favor long distance trains. Which passengers travel the greatest number of passenger miles? Long distance passengers, of course. Anyone who ever uses passenger miles with respect to any debate about Amtrak should be dismissed on the spot.

Correct. This country needs buses on rails! Cheap, efficent intercity transportation for poor people. It's even worth subsidizing. I'd like to see more of them!

Meanwhile, the hobbies of retirees who love trains because they existed in their youth? Not worth once cent of taxpayer money.

Just as dishonest as "passenger miles". All those passengers on the Acela were connecting off long distance trains. Really?

Southwest Airlines became one of the biggest airlines in America on mostly point to point service.

It isn't that I completely oppose hub-and-spoke models-- they have their uses. But this idea that you need long distance trains to make the Northeast Corridor successful is complete bunk. The Northeast Corridor is built on people traveling between big cities like Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Washington.

Of course he's going to say that. He doesn't want his subsidies cut. Meanwhile, what they actually DO is cut sleeper services all the time (while GROWING corridor service). And by the way, that's also what PRIVATE railroads were doing before 1970! Remember the Automat cars?

Yep, because some advocacy organization knows more than the people running Amtrak.

I'm curious, does anyone do this with Coca-Cola? Microsoft? General Motors? Are these companies all assumed to be run by people who don't know the first thing about the very business they are running? Or is it only passenger railroads where, despite the fact that long distance trains have been declining in EVERY rich country ever since the 1950's, the problem is that the people running the railroads didn't know what they are doing and weren't as smart as a bunch of advocates who re-crunch numbers from public reports?

"National network" is spin. Less than 1 percent of the population uses this "network" as their primary means of long distance travel. Call them "long distance trains". You guys have great PR people who come up with a lot of spin, I will give you that. But there is no "national network".

Translation: 'you are absolutely right that raifans will always look for arguments to defend their hobby of riding around in luxury sleeping cars and eating steak at taxpayer expense. Therefore, I will change the subject."

AlanB

This one sentence pretty much shows how out of touch you are with the realities of things if you think that Amtrak's sleeping cars are luxurious.

A roomette is basically two phone booths lying on their sides stacked one on top of the other with 2 beds installed. There are no other luxuries in those rooms!

Besides, the bulk of the riders in sleeping cars aren't railfans.