Last edit by: Prospero
This thread is dedicated to issues around American Airlines Corporate Security, AAdvantage Fraud division (AKA "Revenue Protection Unit"), and its enforcement of the AAdvantage Terms and Conditions - particularly to selling, buying and bartering awards, miles, upgrades and other instruments - and related issues.
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AAs eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase ones chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
Also see AAdvantage Program Terms and Conditions and
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
The typical email from AA Corporate Security can not be addressed by calling AAdvantage Customer Service or other methods - you must reply to the email address given. It likely will look like this:
Excellent summaries of information (based on the sum of experiences we have seen in this thread over time) of how to respond:
From JonNYC, our resident expert on this:
Older posts have been archived to the
archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AAs eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase ones chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
E.g. AAdvantage Terms and Conditions excerpt: "At no time may AAdvantage mileage credit or award tickets be purchased, sold, advertised for sale or bartered (including but not limited to transferring, gifting, or promising mileage credit or award tickets in exchange for support of a certain business, product or charity and/or participation in an auction, sweepstakes, raffle or contest). Any such mileage or tickets are void if transferred for cash or other consideration. Violators (including any passenger who uses a purchased or bartered award ticket) may be liable for damages and litigation costs, including American Airlines attorneys fees incurred in enforcing this rule." (This extends to other AA instruments such as Systemwide Upgrades, etc., selling of extra AirPass seats or baggage allowance, etc.)
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
<snip>"While you may consider the AAdvantage Miles in your account to be *your* property, they are actually the property of AA, and AA permits you to redeem them within the program rules set by AA. If AA detects any impropriety (real or perceived) in the use of AAdvantage miles, they reserve the right to confiscate the miles and/or close/delete the account."...
My name is Fname Lname, and I am an analyst with American Airlines. One of my responsibilities is investigating possible instances of fraud, misrepresentation, and violations of the General AAdvantage Program Conditions. Today, Im writing you about your AAdvantage account # XXXXXXXX
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com in conjunction with your account and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, its not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com in conjunction with your account and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:
- Passenger name
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles
- Purchaser contact information, such as:
- Mailing address
- Email address
- Telephone number
- Website profile name
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser
- Documentation that you received payment
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above
- Website profile name
- Telephone number
- Email address
- Mailing address
- Purchaser contact information, such as:
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, its not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
Blogger Gary Leff: "If you made that mistake and got caught, American usually will go light on first-time offenders provided that they come clean and are forthcoming about whom a systemwide was sold to or purchased from and what the terms were. They are most interested in serial brokers and are willing to plea bargain with minor offenders to get the Evip-lords. There may be a consequence but it should fall short of account shutdown and forfeiture of miles." Link
I am going to try and provide a summary of the advice. For the record, this is 90% from Jon (JonNYC) and a little bit from other comments and circumstances, I am just trying to provide an easy summary, without all the explanations and reasons. I am happy to have others update/correct.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
Perfect and 100%.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.
archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
Account audit / blocked / fraud: award / miles / SWU / sale, barter, etc.
#151
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
It's absolutely astounding to me the kinds of "first answers" that some folks try sending in. Often incorporating almost -all- of the items from the "do NOT do" list above; obfuscation, DYKWIA, condescension, insanely obvious truth-twisting, trial-ballon straw-men blaming, threats (of "taking business elsewhere") and, as damning as all of those, insulting, slippery vagueness.
It's as if they think that they're dealing with some moron on the other side and are thinking they can out-fox them and have a "why admit until I know what they know?" approach. Fail every time.
Worst part is; then when they have to go back, hat-in-hand, to amend their first answers (usually after someone on the internet sends them to this exact thread-- this thread is the go-to for every on-line forum that deals with travel/miles,) they are *severely* disadvantaged for the obvious reasons.
It's as if they think that they're dealing with some moron on the other side and are thinking they can out-fox them and have a "why admit until I know what they know?" approach. Fail every time.
Worst part is; then when they have to go back, hat-in-hand, to amend their first answers (usually after someone on the internet sends them to this exact thread-- this thread is the go-to for every on-line forum that deals with travel/miles,) they are *severely* disadvantaged for the obvious reasons.
#152
Join Date: Sep 2016
Programs: AA Plat
Posts: 122
Agree with JonNYC-
It reminds me of when my kid does something wrong and I already know the answer, but pretend I don't have all the info to fully understand the situation and ask him about it. When AA contacts you about fraud, they most likely have everything they need and just need you to formally answer so you can't come back and say I don't know why they shut my account down.
It reminds me of when my kid does something wrong and I already know the answer, but pretend I don't have all the info to fully understand the situation and ask him about it. When AA contacts you about fraud, they most likely have everything they need and just need you to formally answer so you can't come back and say I don't know why they shut my account down.
#154
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Join Date: Mar 2001
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Posts: 27,730
100% your choice, of course, but 1000's of SWUs are given away and it's simply not an issue.
#155
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SFO
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 5,270
Not to mention the implicit assumption that the analysts have nothing better to do than go back and forth with dozens of emails to try to coax the story out. They're not going to waste their time or company resources "saving" customers who won't cooperate.
#156
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
#157
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Matre-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
In fact I often tell the agent exactly what I'm doing while I'm booking.
Last edited by JDiver; Feb 24, 2017 at 10:02 pm
#158
Join Date: May 2005
Location: DFW
Programs: AA Plat
Posts: 271
I've given away awards, SWU etc. over he years and have never had problems. Otoh, I've go nothing to hide, there has been absolutely no quid pro quo and if they asked the recipients their responses will be honest (and of course neither I nor they deal with bikers).
In fact I often tell the agent exactly what I'm doing while I'm booking.
In fact I often tell the agent exactly what I'm doing while I'm booking.
#159
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Matre-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
#160
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: South Florida
Programs: AA LTG (EXP), Hilton Silver (Dia), Marriott LTP (PP), SPG LTG (P) > MPG LTPP
Posts: 11,329
It's absolutely astounding to me the kinds of "first answers" that some folks try sending in. Often incorporating almost -all- of the items from the "do NOT do" list above; obfuscation, DYKWIA, condescension, insanely obvious truth-twisting, trial-ballon straw-men blaming, threats (of "taking business elsewhere") and, as damning as all of those, insulting, slippery vagueness.
It's as if they think that they're dealing with some moron on the other side and are thinking they can out-fox them and have a "why admit until I know what they know?" approach. Fail every time.
Worst part is; then when they have to go back, hat-in-hand, to amend their first answers (usually after someone on the internet sends them to this exact thread-- this thread is the go-to for every on-line forum that deals with travel/miles,) they are *severely* disadvantaged for the obvious reasons.
It's as if they think that they're dealing with some moron on the other side and are thinking they can out-fox them and have a "why admit until I know what they know?" approach. Fail every time.
Worst part is; then when they have to go back, hat-in-hand, to amend their first answers (usually after someone on the internet sends them to this exact thread-- this thread is the go-to for every on-line forum that deals with travel/miles,) they are *severely* disadvantaged for the obvious reasons.
#161
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
After years of dealing with clueless CSRs and TAs anytime you try to do something they don't do day in and day out, you start to believe everyone at AA is at the same level. AA's security team seems to be many steps above the front line staff and needs to be taken seriously.
#162
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
I've given away awards, SWU etc. over he years and have never had problems. Otoh, I've go nothing to hide, there has been absolutely no quid pro quo and if they asked the recipients their responses will be honest (and of course neither I nor they deal with brokers).
In fact I often tell the agent exactly what I'm doing while I'm booking.
In fact I often tell the agent exactly what I'm doing while I'm booking.
On the off, off chance-- and I cannot emphasize how small this chance is-- you get caught up in an investigation (say you end up giving away one to someone you don't know and they end up being investigated,) it will be a simple matter to get it worked out. But even that is SO remote, for the reasons stated upthread.
Simply put, the folks who show up here and other places proclaiming innocence and that they simply "got caught up" in something or that their completely innocent participation in a giveaway was misread/misconstrued, etc., etc., -- they aren't telling the truth. I literally have never heard of a case (which, as always, is not to say there aren't a handful,) of people who factually gave away or received a truly donated SWU where they later got in trouble.
#163
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: SFO/OAK
Programs: AA EXP 3.4MM, BAEC, UAMP, Skyteam (<10k) HH Gold, IHG Plat, Hertz Gold, GE/TSA TT
Posts: 2,723
I've given away awards, SWU etc. over he years and have never had problems. Otoh, I've go nothing to hide, there has been absolutely no quid pro quo and if they asked the recipients their responses will be honest (and of course neither I nor they deal with brokers).
In fact I often tell the agent exactly what I'm doing while I'm booking.
In fact I often tell the agent exactly what I'm doing while I'm booking.
#164
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,613
Just wanted to add the emphasis, lest some folks get the sense from this thread that there is risk in giving away their expiring SWU's (which would be a real shame and "letting enemy win" to a degree )-- there isn't. There is no risk.
On the off, off chance-- and I cannot emphasize how small this chance is-- you get caught up in an investigation (say you end up giving away one to someone you don't know and they end up being investigated,) it will be a simple matter to get it worked out. But even that is SO remote, for the reasons stated upthread.
Simply put, the folks who show up here and other places proclaiming innocence and that they simply "got caught up" in something or that their completely innocent participation in a giveaway was misread/misconstrued, etc., etc., -- they aren't telling the truth. I literally have never heard of a case (which, as always, is not to say there aren't a handful,) of people who factually gave away or received a truly donated SWU where they later got in trouble.
On the off, off chance-- and I cannot emphasize how small this chance is-- you get caught up in an investigation (say you end up giving away one to someone you don't know and they end up being investigated,) it will be a simple matter to get it worked out. But even that is SO remote, for the reasons stated upthread.
Simply put, the folks who show up here and other places proclaiming innocence and that they simply "got caught up" in something or that their completely innocent participation in a giveaway was misread/misconstrued, etc., etc., -- they aren't telling the truth. I literally have never heard of a case (which, as always, is not to say there aren't a handful,) of people who factually gave away or received a truly donated SWU where they later got in trouble.
It seems from reading this thread (and I have now since I started to paying attention more to Frequent Flier programs) that in most cases the person caught is guilty and there is little question of their guilt and depending on the severity AA is willing to educate them and maybe extract some sort of penalty but in the end allows that person to continue on in the program.
I recently had an issue with my Auto Insurance, I paid it in full and early only for the Insurance Company to not mark my policy as paid and for it to be cancelled for lack of payment even though I paid it in full and early.
I called them multiple times (both before and after I received the notice that my policy was cancelled) only to be assured that everything was correct, except it wasn't and then the icing on the cake was having my license suspend by the state for lack of auto insurance at DUI checkpoint (I was not drinking so I was not charged with DUI thank god). I showed the officer my paid receipt, except he did not care and said, "tell it to a judge".
I had to reach out to the office of the CEO of the company to get things corrected and to their credit they did re-instate my policy, correct things with the state and ensure that my driving record was cleaned up, but it was a hassle and I had done what I was supposed to do as a customer, pay the bill in the amount owed by its due date (as I said I paid it early). Essentially through no fault of my own I was swept up into something that is meant to punish people who actually do something wrong, not people who are merely a victim of a mistake.
Which brings me to my question and I do realize that none of us maybe able to answer it.
Does AA have some false positives? Do we know of any and did AA apologize or in some way say hey mea culpa, and make the person whole?
Obviously, we may have no way of knowing this and I more throwing out there for curiosity sake more than anything else.
#165
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: FNT, but DTW if I can't help it
Programs: AAdvantage Former EXP/Current PLT / Total Rewards - Diamond / Hilton HHonors - Gold
Posts: 757
I'd suspect there are false positives that get worked out, but that the members here are a bit more educated than the average flyer about the rules, making it less likely those stories will involve FT members.