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Dog Allergic J Pax Implies She Might Cause Diversion Due to Dogs, Offloaded

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Old May 22, 2017, 12:11 pm
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SUMMARY OF EVENTS (link):

Passenger flying MIA-LAX on a Boeing 777-300ER on a paid Business Class ticket (all aisle lie flat seat compartments).

"Upon boarding, a passenger seated in the row behind her got on 'with a rather large dog' who she says 'tried to jump on' her" (G Leff). Seeking re accommodation in the cabin, she was shown a seat in the aft of the Business cabin, near a smaller dog. Passenger claims she has allergies.

The passenger's statement as quoted by Gary Leff:

I said to a[.. flight attendant] that I hope we dont need to make an unplanned stop to which she replied we dont want that to happen I replied that I didnt want that to happen either.

I returned to my seat and did my best to shield myself from the dog.

A few minutes later the [gate agent] came up to me and said that I had to get off the flight. I thought he was joking but when I realized that he wasnt, I complied as I know the FAA rules concerning crew member compliance.

As I disembarked, a few of the [flight attendants] were applauding and cheering because I was being removed.
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Dog Allergic J Pax Implies She Might Cause Diversion Due to Dogs, Offloaded

Old May 23, 2017, 7:38 pm
  #91  
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Originally Posted by bchandler02
That was exactly the point. Both (supposedly) provide a level of mental stability for the patient. One has the potential to disrupt other passengers either via medical/allergic reaction, or by general annoyance and misbehavior. The other does not take up any space, make any noise, or cause any allergic reaction just by being in the general area.
Let's try this:

Originally Posted by bchandler02
One has to wonder - if someone is not mentally stable enough to travel without an ESA taking their Prozac, do they belong on a flight? How are they not a risk to themselves or others at that point?
You're okay with mentally unstable pax being on the flight without their meds? Then why not without their ESAs?
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Old May 23, 2017, 7:40 pm
  #92  
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Originally Posted by carlosdca
Well, if an anesthesiologist is a "MEDICAL DOCTOR" then he can certainly write the note. Is an anesthesiologist a medical doctor?
Well I never said that an anesthesiologist couldn't write one. I would certainly expect that few, if any, have ever been asked. Therefore thus, boerne's earlier post proved nothing. We don't even know if s/he is a MEDICAL DOCTOR.
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Old May 23, 2017, 9:48 pm
  #93  
 
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Originally Posted by ijgordon
Let's try this:


You're okay with mentally unstable pax being on the flight without their meds? Then why not without their ESAs?
If you're so nervous about flying that you need drugs or a therapy animal to get through it, you probably shouldn't be flying.

I wonder... in how many countries is there a protected right to fly? Certainly not in the US...
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Old May 24, 2017, 9:46 am
  #94  
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Originally Posted by as219
T I'm well aware that many people think ESA's are bogus or that the designation is so overused virtually all ESAs must be fraudulent, but it doesn't change the reality that they are necessary to certain people...

If enough people complain, the rules are changed, and my wife can no longer bring her ESA on flights, it's going to be rather personal to me and to a lot of other people.
If the ESA issue is that personal to you, and you have a truly legit reason for having one in cabin, I would expect you to be all in favor of more stringent rules that screen out the fakes and abusers. They are defining the issue in a way that disadvantages you.
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Old May 24, 2017, 12:23 pm
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Originally Posted by BearX220
If the ESA issue is that personal to you, and you have a truly legit reason for having one in cabin, I would expect you to be all in favor of more stringent rules that screen out the fakes and abusers. They are defining the issue in a way that disadvantages you.
In Florida, it was disability rights groups that were behind a recent successful push to make falsely claiming a pet is a service animal a criminal misdemeanor.
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Old May 28, 2017, 7:36 am
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Originally Posted by beachmouse
In Florida, it was disability rights groups that were behind a recent successful push to make falsely claiming a pet is a service animal a criminal misdemeanor.
Waiting to see the first case go to trial as all someone needs is that doctor's note. I am all for an ESA having to be trained, then licensed, before they can be designated as an ESA. I have this debate at least once weekly at the local dog park. The dogs should have the training to obey the commands of sit, stay, down, off, etc... and know going to the bathroom is an outside function or only on a pee-pad. The animals also have been trained to take food from one or a few specific people so as not to bother others who may have food out and are eating.

Many people say it is discriminatory to force a patient to spend more money to get the animal trained, but those people who use an actual certified service animal have spent the money to have it done.

Blind people have a dog that has been trained to stop at edges, intersections, etc... Handicapped people have dogs that pick up things off the floor for their owner or other assisting needs. People who have seizures have dogs that are trained to recognize, either by scent or observation, the warning signs and signal by whatever means trained to alert the owner. I saw this with a pitbull who was trained to recognize someone who would go into diabetic shock if her sugar levels reached a certain point, and the owner knew to stop what she was doing and take extra medicine.

All these animals have had special training and either have bought the animal already trained for thousands of dollars, or have paid to have it trained. There are some charities that also pay for those individuals who can't afford it, but the animal has been trained as stated above.

A lot of the animals that are presented as ESA's do not have this training and are a nuisance to others. I am an animal lover, who has a dog and grew up with cats. I will take him to restaurants that have outside seating that allows him to be there. But, I should not have to see them inside restaurants, in stores, on planes, or other confined spaces when they have not been trained properly. Those that have, normally will sit under the table and not bother anyone for food or interact with any other people.

Finally, as many businesses are afraid to be sued, they tend not to challenge the person bringing in the animal. The ADA has made it clear, you can ask the person what specific service the service animal does for you, but you can't ask what is your disability. If the person bringing in the animal claims it is an ESA that does not do a specific service aka service dog, you can deny them entry into the business, and there is nothing that the business is doing wrong.

Again, until the government officials pass laws that will allow businesses to be better protected against this, we will continue to see untrained animals in places they should not be.
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Old May 28, 2017, 7:56 am
  #97  
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Originally Posted by boerne
Any MD can write one, including somebody who is retired, or not board certified, or your next door neighbor, so yes its pretty easy. And cats are way worse than dogs, if you look at the links I provided. Most anesthesiologists are MDs or DOs, and they can do the letter. Bring on the pitbulls....
Isn't the person required to be a patient of the medical doctor writing the letter?

Also, even if ACA permits any medical doctor to write such a letter, what would medical ethics say about a doctor providing a letter for the neighbor or a relative? However, I guess there couldn't be any medical ethics sanctions possible against a retired doctor or a doctor who isn't licensed to practice medicine.

IMO board certification is a somewhat different criterion in that if any doctor such as a GP can write the letter, board certification wouldn't matter. Many specialists would be board certified (and a GP could be board certified in family medicine, pediatrics, internal medicine, or whatever), but unless the board certification is in psychiatry or something similar (maybe gerontology?), that expertise would be irrelevant for verifying the need for the emotional support animal, except possibly if the doctor is a specialist is rehabilitation but I don't know what the relevant board certified specialty would be.
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Old May 28, 2017, 11:40 am
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In 90% of cases (or more) the owner is the ESA for the animal.

In short: "My (nervous) dog get's anxious without me, which in turn makes me anxious, which in turn...etc."
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Old May 28, 2017, 3:58 pm
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
Isn't the person required to be a patient of the medical doctor writing the letter?
Only for the purposes of the letter. As to ethics, you presume all physicians are "ethical" and their understanding of what is ethical is the same as yours. And the wording does not specify a specialty. So a "GP" in a small town can satisfy the letter of the law/rule.
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Old May 29, 2017, 9:36 am
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Originally Posted by JonNYC
It won't. She sealed her own fate by suggesting the "unplanned stop" -- at that point she was basically putting them on notice and she had to come off.
^^^

Crew perceived a veiled threat due to a first world problem - no customer is worth that.
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Old May 29, 2017, 9:55 am
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OK folks, there are true ESA's and service animals. For the many people traveling with their pets, it is about $$$$ and saving them. If everyone had to buy a seat (possibly for a reduced fee) for a traveling animal then the number of animals would diminish. Airlines aren't risking the bad publicity of separating "Fifi" from their emotionally needy owner or trying to determine who has a true service animal. You can't put bird food out for free then complain about the birds, Just sayin'. Most of us have figured this out, it isn't rocket science.
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Old May 30, 2017, 3:14 pm
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Originally Posted by Oxnardjan
OK folks, there are true ESA's and service animals. For the many people traveling with their pets, it is about $$$$ and saving them. If everyone had to buy a seat (possibly for a reduced fee) for a traveling animal then the number of animals would diminish. Airlines aren't risking the bad publicity of separating "Fifi" from their emotionally needy owner or trying to determine who has a true service animal. You can't put bird food out for free then complain about the birds, Just sayin'. Most of us have figured this out, it isn't rocket science.
How many true ESAs and service animals have you seen on flights? I can't remember the last time I saw one.

I've seen quite a few BS ESAs though.

A better analogy is you can't put out bird food and not expect squirrels. The difference is that companies continuously make better bird feeders to keep the squirrels out.
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Old May 30, 2017, 9:24 pm
  #103  
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Originally Posted by kb9522
How many true ESAs and service animals have you seen on flights? I can't remember the last time I saw one.

I've seen quite a few BS ESAs though.
My BS meter just hit max.

Without reviewing the passenger's paperwork and/or examining the passenger and evaluating whether they suffer from an emotional or mental disability (the standard for an emotional support animal diagnosis), then a bystander's observation would be irrelevant. Passengers who are not treating (as a doctor or mental health professional) would have no way of knowing whether a fellow passenger's dog was a "true ESA" or a "BS ESA."

Last edited by FWAAA; May 30, 2017 at 9:30 pm
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Old May 30, 2017, 11:57 pm
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Originally Posted by FWAAA
My BS meter just hit max.

Without reviewing the passenger's paperwork and/or examining the passenger and evaluating whether they suffer from an emotional or mental disability (the standard for an emotional support animal diagnosis), then a bystander's observation would be irrelevant. Passengers who are not treating (as a doctor or mental health professional) would have no way of knowing whether a fellow passenger's dog was a "true ESA" or a "BS ESA."
Correct. You need to know what to look for. Even then it can be a hard call.
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Old May 31, 2017, 2:57 am
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Originally Posted by FWAAA
My BS meter just hit max.

Without reviewing the passenger's paperwork and/or examining the passenger and evaluating whether they suffer from an emotional or mental disability (the standard for an emotional support animal diagnosis), then a bystander's observation would be irrelevant. Passengers who are not treating (as a doctor or mental health professional) would have no way of knowing whether a fellow passenger's dog was a "true ESA" or a "BS ESA."
Most people don't bedazzle their legit ESA.

My BS meter just hit max. You're either blitzed out of your mind or kidding yourself if you don't know that an overwhelming majority of "ESAs" are just pets that people don't want to pay for.

There's a huge difference between a properly trained animal and an untrained pet. The difference is obvious.
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