Apr 25, 2017, 6:09 am
Last edit by: JDiver
AA Ground Staff May Deny Boarding for China Transit Without Visa Issues
This thread is ONLY for discussion of American Airlines' ground staff dealing with Chinese TWOV issues. For further information, see:
FlyerTalk Forums > Destinations > Asia > China Forum
China Visa / Visas Master Thread (all you need to know)
and / or
China 24, 72, and 144 hour Transit Without Visa ("TWOV") rules master thread
The issue: though Chinese immigration authorities seem disposed to allow transit without visa for passengers going on to flights with connections in non-China, non-origin destinations, e.g. LAX-PVG <permitted TWOV> PVG-NRT-LAX, AA ground staff have denied boarding to passengers for the XXX-China leg.
Even if such a passenger were to secure alternate arrangements or reimbursement, there is still sure to be considerable inconvenience. Until AA informs ground staff such travel complies with China TWOV rules, purchasing such an itinerary currently entails some degree of risk, as evidenced in the following thread.
AA generally uses IATA Timatic to verify boarding eligibility. Link to Timatic Web provided courtesy of United Airlines; this form provides information on entry requirements, not departure policies as might be administered by any airline.
144 TWOV China- AA Issues/Questions
Apr 18, 2017, 2:36 pm
#106
Join Date: May 2007
Programs: AAdvantage, Hilton
Posts: 3,191
When it comes to permitting travel to the country, the airline is required to ensure that the passenger meets the documented terms for admission to that country - allow an ineligible person to travel and the airline get penalised
Timatic is the system that is set up with visa requirements and with PVG as a destination ( which is seems clear that it would have been , just based on fares) , how else would you expect an airline to check eligibilty other than as PVG as a destination?
Whether , beyond meeting eligibility to travel to China, an immigration offivcer would allow/deny entry is irrelevent
Timatic is the system that is set up with visa requirements and with PVG as a destination ( which is seems clear that it would have been , just based on fares) , how else would you expect an airline to check eligibilty other than as PVG as a destination?
Whether , beyond meeting eligibility to travel to China, an immigration offivcer would allow/deny entry is irrelevent
On your side of the argument we have one rogue AA agent and zero examples of people being denied entry into China -- oh and your own flawed interpretation of the rules.
Apr 18, 2017, 2:43 pm
#107
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AA's sole interest in checking documents is to protect itself from transporting someone determined by PRC authorities to be improperly documented. AA is subject to substantial fines and the prospect of returning the individual to the US and having to chase the individual for the cost.
Carriers are often much more conservative than border authorities. What "usually" happens is irrelevant. The question is what the words say.
In this instance, the immediate alarm bell goes off when OP uses the term "layover". There is no such term. He is either connecting at NRT or stopping over. In this case he is connecting and thus he holds a ticket USA-PRC-USA with a connection at NRT. AA properly interprets that as a simple round-trip.
He could have purchased a ticket which included a stop-over at NRT, but that was more expensive, as he learned.
Might AA refund OP his $2K? Possibly as a customer service matter.
Will AA retrain its agents? No. This is a risk management issue and agents are trained to be conservative.
Will China clarify that a connection is good enough? No.
What could OP have done? When traveling with family half-way around the world, this one was simple. Get a visa.
Apr 18, 2017, 2:58 pm
#108
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Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
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Timatic is the system that is set up with visa requirements and with PVG as a destination ( which is seems clear that it would have been , just based on fares) , how else would you expect an airline to check eligibilty other than as PVG as a destination?
Apr 18, 2017, 3:01 pm
#109
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Join Date: Dec 2000
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I wouldn't phrase it as a "connection" because that concept isn't especially common in China, but if you asked them if flying in from LAX and flying out to TYO within 144 hours is okay, they would definitely say "yes".
Apr 18, 2017, 3:04 pm
#110
Join Date: May 2007
Programs: AAdvantage, Hilton
Posts: 3,191
This is where you are entirely wrong. TIMATIC is a database maintained by IATA as a service to its members, including AA. It happens to be available to the public through a number of channels.
AA's sole interest in checking documents is to protect itself from transporting someone determined by PRC authorities to be improperly documented. AA is subject to substantial fines and the prospect of returning the individual to the US and having to chase the individual for the cost.
Carriers are often much more conservative than border authorities. What "usually" happens is irrelevant. The question is what the words say.
In this instance, the immediate alarm bell goes off when OP uses the term "layover". There is no such term. He is either connecting at NRT or stopping over. In this case he is connecting and thus he holds a ticket USA-PRC-USA with a connection at NRT. AA properly interprets that as a simple round-trip.
He could have purchased a ticket which included a stop-over at NRT, but that was more expensive, as he learned.
Might AA refund OP his $2K? Possibly as a customer service matter.
Will AA retrain its agents? No. This is a risk management issue and agents are trained to be conservative.
Will China clarify that a connection is good enough? No.
What could OP have done? When traveling with family half-way around the world, this one was simple. Get a visa.
AA's sole interest in checking documents is to protect itself from transporting someone determined by PRC authorities to be improperly documented. AA is subject to substantial fines and the prospect of returning the individual to the US and having to chase the individual for the cost.
Carriers are often much more conservative than border authorities. What "usually" happens is irrelevant. The question is what the words say.
In this instance, the immediate alarm bell goes off when OP uses the term "layover". There is no such term. He is either connecting at NRT or stopping over. In this case he is connecting and thus he holds a ticket USA-PRC-USA with a connection at NRT. AA properly interprets that as a simple round-trip.
He could have purchased a ticket which included a stop-over at NRT, but that was more expensive, as he learned.
Might AA refund OP his $2K? Possibly as a customer service matter.
Will AA retrain its agents? No. This is a risk management issue and agents are trained to be conservative.
Will China clarify that a connection is good enough? No.
What could OP have done? When traveling with family half-way around the world, this one was simple. Get a visa.
Apr 18, 2017, 3:28 pm
#111
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: New York, NY
Programs: AA, CX, AS, DL / Hilton, SPG
Posts: 153
AA agents seem to have trouble with a lot lately. I have a 10 year Chinese visa and took a friend with me on a trip last year, he's was originating in PHL (connecting via ORD to PEK) and the ex-US agents tried for over an hour to deny him boarding because his flight to a third country was not on a Oneworld carrier—and yes he had proof with an e-ticket number of onward travel. The agent actually tried to laughably show my friend a page in German (which she couldn't read) to prove her point. Luckily a friend at ops put me in touch with the station manager who set the agent straight in a few minutes.
Apr 18, 2017, 3:38 pm
#112
Join Date: May 2012
Location: HNL
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Posts: 1,030
LOL.... I thought this died last night when I went to bed...
What if NRT is my destination?
I really like the candy at NRT airport at the lower level were BA gates are. I always buy several boxes from there. I don't know why, but they don't sell it anywhere else at the airport (I've checked rigorously several times). I do MRs where all I do is go to airports and buy exotic stuff for family and friends. My main goal is to get to NRT airport and get this candy. Oh, China offers TWOV? I've wanted to go see xyz and haven't, I'll transit through China for 36 hours TWOV on my way to NRT airport.
You might laugh, but I have done MRs where I go to CGK through NRT. On a long NRT layover I visit my friend in Japan while doing nothing at CGK.
Here's what I think happened with TWOV and China:
China: How do we get tourist money from tourists going to BKK, SIN, TYO, etc?
Businesses: Let's have a free transit visa TWOV.
China: TWOV implemented.
Businesses: People using TWOV have not been "transiting" through China
China: Do we make money?
Businesses: Yes.
China: Awesome!
Businesses: Should we change the wording?
China: Too much work, leave it as is. Border patrol agents know what to do.
No documentation of anybody ever being denied TWOV by doing a "transit" through China. This has been going on for years, China knows people are doing this and are probably happy people are doing it otherwise they would have put a stop to it.
What if NRT is my destination?
I really like the candy at NRT airport at the lower level were BA gates are. I always buy several boxes from there. I don't know why, but they don't sell it anywhere else at the airport (I've checked rigorously several times). I do MRs where all I do is go to airports and buy exotic stuff for family and friends. My main goal is to get to NRT airport and get this candy. Oh, China offers TWOV? I've wanted to go see xyz and haven't, I'll transit through China for 36 hours TWOV on my way to NRT airport.
You might laugh, but I have done MRs where I go to CGK through NRT. On a long NRT layover I visit my friend in Japan while doing nothing at CGK.
Here's what I think happened with TWOV and China:
China: How do we get tourist money from tourists going to BKK, SIN, TYO, etc?
Businesses: Let's have a free transit visa TWOV.
China: TWOV implemented.
Businesses: People using TWOV have not been "transiting" through China
China: Do we make money?
Businesses: Yes.
China: Awesome!
Businesses: Should we change the wording?
China: Too much work, leave it as is. Border patrol agents know what to do.
No documentation of anybody ever being denied TWOV by doing a "transit" through China. This has been going on for years, China knows people are doing this and are probably happy people are doing it otherwise they would have put a stop to it.
Apr 18, 2017, 6:07 pm
#113
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When it comes to permitting travel to the country, the airline is required to ensure that the passenger meets the documented terms for admission to that country - allow an ineligible person to travel and the airline get penalised
Timatic is the system that is set up with visa requirements and with PVG as a destination ( which is seems clear that it would have been , just based on fares) , how else would you expect an airline to check eligibilty other than as PVG as a destination?
Whether , beyond meeting eligibility to travel to China, an immigration offivcer would allow/deny entry is irrelevant ; if the airline has ensured that the passenger met the documented requirements to allow travel to the country, it is not then liable if person is refused entry
Timatic is the system that is set up with visa requirements and with PVG as a destination ( which is seems clear that it would have been , just based on fares) , how else would you expect an airline to check eligibilty other than as PVG as a destination?
Whether , beyond meeting eligibility to travel to China, an immigration offivcer would allow/deny entry is irrelevant ; if the airline has ensured that the passenger met the documented requirements to allow travel to the country, it is not then liable if person is refused entry
Apr 18, 2017, 6:21 pm
#114
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Over the North Atlantic
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 494
What I don't get is how does the supervisor not know about these borderline cases.
Apr 18, 2017, 6:24 pm
#115
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Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
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The agent presumably entered China as the destination. The correct way (in the OP's case) is to enter Japan as the destination and China as the transit point.
Apr 18, 2017, 7:03 pm
#116
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,548
On a r/t to PVG where travel on the inbound has a transit in NRT, which of the 2 methods would seem to be the valid entry to use to determine eligibility?
If China wanted general tourist visa free travel, it could simply change to having a 144 hour visa waiver for tourists and issue would go away.
Even if the Govt. of China sanctions this use ( as suggested above ) , cannot expect airlines to do anything other than what the official rules state , surely?
Apr 18, 2017, 7:17 pm
#117
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If China wanted general tourist visa free travel, it could simply change to having a 144 hour visa waiver for tourists and issue would go away.
Even if the Govt. of China sanctions this use ( as suggested above ) , cannot expect airlines to do anything other than what the official rules state , surely?
Apr 18, 2017, 7:17 pm
#118
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The agent would have been trained to enter the destination as China. Japan would only be the destination with China as the transit point if OP was ticketed US-CHINA (connection <24 hours) - JAPAN.
Other agents, certain that China would not refuse admission based on the lack of a visa would let this slide, but this does not make the agent in this case wrong.
Apr 18, 2017, 7:58 pm
#119
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In the case of a passenger who states the intention of availing of the visa free transit policy, it is quite obvious that information about the policy can only be accessed when China is input as the transit country. Once this page is open, it is also obvious that his itinerary is compliant. This is NOT a gray area case.
Apr 18, 2017, 8:06 pm
#120
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