Aug 29, 2016, 4:02 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
Back to Back or "Nested" Tickets - Discussion
Ticket validity: Compliance with terms and conditions of sale (link)
American specifically prohibits practices commonly known as:
Where a ticket is invalidated as the result of the passenger's non-compliance with any term or condition of sale, American has the right in its sole discretion to:
Typically, these are tickets purchased to evade minimum stays such as seven days or Saturday night. E.g. Consultant John Doe flies AUS-SEA Monday, returns Thursday; he buys nested round trip excursion tickets using coupon 1 of ticket 1 outbound, coupon 1 of ticket 2 return, the coupons #2 the following week, etc. AA hates John Doe. AA wants Mr. Doe to stop it.
Ticket validity: Compliance with terms and conditions of sale (link)
American specifically prohibits practices commonly known as:
- Back-to-back ticketing: The combination of two or more roundtrip excursion fares end to end for the purpose of circumventing minimum stay requirements.
Where a ticket is invalidated as the result of the passenger's non-compliance with any term or condition of sale, American has the right in its sole discretion to:
- Cancel any remaining portion of the passenger's itinerary
- Confiscate unused flight coupons
- Refuse to board the passenger or check the passenger's luggage
- Refuse to refund an otherwise refundable ticket
- Assess the passenger for the reasonable remaining value of the ticket, which shall be no less than the difference between the fare actually paid and the lowest fare applicable to the passenger's actual itinerary
Typically, these are tickets purchased to evade minimum stays such as seven days or Saturday night. E.g. Consultant John Doe flies AUS-SEA Monday, returns Thursday; he buys nested round trip excursion tickets using coupon 1 of ticket 1 outbound, coupon 1 of ticket 2 return, the coupons #2 the following week, etc. AA hates John Doe. AA wants Mr. Doe to stop it.
Back-to-back or "nested" ticketing questions, discussion (consolidated)
Dec 16, 2010, 3:56 pm
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2009
Programs: AA, ICH, Avis, SPG
Posts: 195
Does AA frown upon 'nested' (back-to-back) tickets?
i need to fly from SFO-LHR for midweek trips on January 10th and January 24th. unfortunately to fly SFO-LHR-SFO on 1/10 and back on 1/12 is quite expensive. instead, if i fly:
SFO-LHR-SFO 1/10 and 1/27
LHR-SFO-LHR 1/12 and 1/24
prices are much lower.
is this frowned upon by AA?
SFO-LHR-SFO 1/10 and 1/27
LHR-SFO-LHR 1/12 and 1/24
prices are much lower.
is this frowned upon by AA?
Last edited by JDiver; Aug 30, 2015 at 8:59 pm Reason: Restore original post title
Dec 16, 2010, 4:02 pm
#2
Moderator: Coupon Connection & S.P.A.M
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Louisville, KY
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That's a back-to-back ticket and if LHR-SFO-LHR violates the minimum stay of the fare class SFO-LHR-SFO is booked in, then yes AA does frown upon such practices.
You can go LHR-XXX-LHR instead and have a "nested" ticket (and then go XXX-SFO), or you can go LHR-SFO-LHR on another carrier, neither of which will arouse the ire of AA.
You can go LHR-XXX-LHR instead and have a "nested" ticket (and then go XXX-SFO), or you can go LHR-SFO-LHR on another carrier, neither of which will arouse the ire of AA.
Dec 16, 2010, 4:07 pm
#4
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
American's Conditions of Carriage, which I opine to be mandatory reading for every passenger even if out of sheer self-protection, says yes, AA frowns upon this practice:
TICKET VALIDITY - COMPLIANCE WITH TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF SALE
Tickets are valid for travel only when used in accordance with all terms and conditions of sale. Terms and conditions of sale include but are not limited to:
The passenger's itinerary, as stated on the ticket or in the passenger's reservation record,
Any requirement that the passenger stay over a specified date or length of time (for example, Saturday night or weekend) at the destination specified on the ticket.
Any special purpose or status (for example, age in the case of senior citizen or children's discounts, military status in the case of a military fare, official government business in the case of a government fare, or attendance at a qualified event in the case of a meeting or convention fare) that entitles the passenger to a special or reduced rate, or
Any other requirement associated with the passenger's fare level.
Unless a ticket is reissued by American or its authorized agent upon payment of applicable charges, or an authorized representative of American waives applicable restrictions in writing, a ticket is invalid:
* American specifically prohibits the practices commonly known as:
Back to Back Ticketing: The combination of two or more roundtrip excursion fares end to end for the purpose of circumventing minimum stay requirements.
Throwaway Ticketing: The usage of roundtrip excursion fare for one-way travel, and
Hidden City/Point Beyond Ticketing: Purchase of a fare from a point before the passenger's actual origin or to a point beyond the passenger's actual destination.
Duplicate and Impossible/Illogical Bookings: Duplicate or impossible/illogical American Airlines bookings are prohibited without prior authorization from American Airlines. A duplicate or impossible/illogical booking includes, but is not limited to, bookings for the same passenger on flights traveling on or about the same date between one or more of the same or nearby origin and/or destination (such as JFKDFW and LGADFW or DFWLAX and DFWONT), or bookings with connections that depart before the arrival of the inbound flight.
Fraudulent, Fictitious and Abusive Bookings: Fraudulent, fictitious and/or abusive bookings are prohibited. These types of bookings are defined as any bookings made without having been requested by or on behalf of the named passenger. Additionally, creating bookings to hold or block seats for the purpose of obtaining lower fares, AAdvantage award inventory, or upgrades that may not otherwise be available, or to circumvent any of American Airlines' fare rules or policies, is prohibited without prior authorization from American Airlines.
Where a ticket is invalidated as the result of the passenger's non-compliance with any term or condition of sale, American has the right in its sole discretion to:
So, there you are. Whether or not you wish to undertake the risk of being caught out is entirely up to you, of course.
Also link to General Tariff rules
TICKET VALIDITY - COMPLIANCE WITH TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF SALE
Tickets are valid for travel only when used in accordance with all terms and conditions of sale. Terms and conditions of sale include but are not limited to:
The passenger's itinerary, as stated on the ticket or in the passenger's reservation record,
Any requirement that the passenger stay over a specified date or length of time (for example, Saturday night or weekend) at the destination specified on the ticket.
Any special purpose or status (for example, age in the case of senior citizen or children's discounts, military status in the case of a military fare, official government business in the case of a government fare, or attendance at a qualified event in the case of a meeting or convention fare) that entitles the passenger to a special or reduced rate, or
Any other requirement associated with the passenger's fare level.
Unless a ticket is reissued by American or its authorized agent upon payment of applicable charges, or an authorized representative of American waives applicable restrictions in writing, a ticket is invalid:
- If used for travel to a destination other than that specified on the ticket,
- If the passenger fails to comply with applicable stay-over requirements,
- If the passenger does not meet the purpose or status requirement associated with the fare category on the ticket, or
- If American determines that the ticket has been purchased or used in a manner designed to circumvent applicable fare rules.
* American specifically prohibits the practices commonly known as:
Back to Back Ticketing: The combination of two or more roundtrip excursion fares end to end for the purpose of circumventing minimum stay requirements.
Throwaway Ticketing: The usage of roundtrip excursion fare for one-way travel, and
Hidden City/Point Beyond Ticketing: Purchase of a fare from a point before the passenger's actual origin or to a point beyond the passenger's actual destination.
Duplicate and Impossible/Illogical Bookings: Duplicate or impossible/illogical American Airlines bookings are prohibited without prior authorization from American Airlines. A duplicate or impossible/illogical booking includes, but is not limited to, bookings for the same passenger on flights traveling on or about the same date between one or more of the same or nearby origin and/or destination (such as JFKDFW and LGADFW or DFWLAX and DFWONT), or bookings with connections that depart before the arrival of the inbound flight.
Fraudulent, Fictitious and Abusive Bookings: Fraudulent, fictitious and/or abusive bookings are prohibited. These types of bookings are defined as any bookings made without having been requested by or on behalf of the named passenger. Additionally, creating bookings to hold or block seats for the purpose of obtaining lower fares, AAdvantage award inventory, or upgrades that may not otherwise be available, or to circumvent any of American Airlines' fare rules or policies, is prohibited without prior authorization from American Airlines.
Where a ticket is invalidated as the result of the passenger's non-compliance with any term or condition of sale, American has the right in its sole discretion to:
- Cancel any remaining portion of the passenger's itinerary,
- Confiscate unused flight coupons,
- Refuse to board the passenger or check the passenger's luggage, or
- Assess the passenger for the reasonable remaining value of the ticket, which shall be no less than the difference between the fare actually paid and the lowest fare applicable to the passenger's actual itinerary
So, there you are. Whether or not you wish to undertake the risk of being caught out is entirely up to you, of course.
Also link to General Tariff rules
Last edited by JDiver; Dec 16, 2010 at 5:59 pm Reason: add second link
Dec 16, 2010, 5:09 pm
#7
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,737
So, in practice, what would happen?
In the past, I have done this with AY several times without problems. I don't know if AY rules prohibit this, but in practice there have never been any problems.
In the past, I have done this with AY several times without problems. I don't know if AY rules prohibit this, but in practice there have never been any problems.
Dec 16, 2010, 5:11 pm
#8
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
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Posts: 62,948
I think that's a grey area - and some of us would be willing to take the risk.
Well, I am a very biased person in this regard, but I believe the "world" let the airlines write their own, unilaterally enforced garbage regs and we're stuck with them. This is reflected in most airlines C of C, as well as the Warsaw Convention (written in 1929) as amended at Den Haag and Montréal, <link>, and other treaties and agreements - every one designed to mitigate the risks to airlines; the airlines assure themselves of the elevators, the passengers usually get the shaft. Harsh? Yes, but I think it's pretty true if you are an uniformed passenger who actually thinks you are guaranteed a schedule a seat, etc. And AA is no different in this regard.
Well, I am a very biased person in this regard, but I believe the "world" let the airlines write their own, unilaterally enforced garbage regs and we're stuck with them. This is reflected in most airlines C of C, as well as the Warsaw Convention (written in 1929) as amended at Den Haag and Montréal, <link>, and other treaties and agreements - every one designed to mitigate the risks to airlines; the airlines assure themselves of the elevators, the passengers usually get the shaft. Harsh? Yes, but I think it's pretty true if you are an uniformed passenger who actually thinks you are guaranteed a schedule a seat, etc. And AA is no different in this regard.
Dec 16, 2010, 5:14 pm
#10
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2009
Programs: AA, ICH, Avis, SPG
Posts: 195
Dec 16, 2010, 5:15 pm
#11
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hotlanta.
Programs: I've gone underground!
Posts: 4,591
According to JDiver's post above, being caught puts you at risk for:
Where a ticket is invalidated as the result of the passenger's non-compliance with any term or condition of sale, American has the right in its sole discretion to:
* Cancel any remaining portion of the passenger's itinerary,
* Confiscate unused flight coupons,
* Refuse to board the passenger or check the passenger's luggage, or
* Assess the passenger for the reasonable remaining value of the ticket, which shall be no less than the difference between the fare actually paid and the lowest fare applicable to the passenger's actual itinerary
In addition, the airlines have been known to send credit letters to various travel agencies that allow passengers to do this.
Dec 16, 2010, 5:16 pm
#12
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Stockholm, Sweden + Austin, Tx
Programs: "But, I'm a GLOBALIST guest...."
Posts: 2,848
Ive done this a couple of times w/o issues - things come up when you're traveling and you need to fly midway through your original itinerary. I dont see the big deal.
You could easily get around this by getting another airline for the middle trip - Id think taht AA would be happy to have both of the sets of tickets.
You could easily get around this by getting another airline for the middle trip - Id think taht AA would be happy to have both of the sets of tickets.
Dec 16, 2010, 5:25 pm
#13
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SFO
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 5,270
https://www.aa.com/i18n/agency/Booki...o_back_ltr.jsp
and if they think you're making a habit of it, they might impose heavier sanctions.
Code:
Ticketing - Back-to-Back Ticketing - Sample Letter Dear, Let me take the opportunity to clarify American Airlines position on back-to-back ticketing. Since passengers utilizing back-to-back tickets are not remaining at their original destination over the required Saturday night, but returning on a second ticket, the intent to circumvent our tariffs is clear, and may be construed as common law fraud. As such, passengers who attempt to use back-to-back tickets may be denied boarding, have the remainder of their ticket confiscated, and may be assessed the difference between the fare paid and the lowest applicable fare. Restrictions on back-to-back ticketing help American offer frequent flights to business travelers, and inexpensive travel to leisure travelers. Leisure travelers are willing to accept various kinds of restrictions, including non-refundable, advance purchase and minimum-stay requirements, in exchange for low prices. They then help fill the excess capacity that is a natural consequence of providing frequent service to fit the business travelers' needs. Without the ability to charge different fares to leisure and business travelers, American would not be able to offer as many flights. In most cases the minimum stay requirement on discount fares is a Saturday-night stay. This is intended to discourage use of the restricted fares by business-travelers since, in most cases, business travelers prefer to get home quickly. Indeed, part of the reason business travelers like frequent flights is that frequent service increases a business travelers ability to minimize overall travel time, and maximize time either at the office or at home. Leisure travelers, however, are choosing to spend their leisure time traveling, and frequently stay over a Saturday night. Although the issuance and usage of back-to-back tickets is not illegal in the sense that one could be fined or sent to jail by the government, it is a breach of a passengers contract with American Airlines. Both Tariff Rule 100AA and American's Condition of Carriage, which are incorporated into every ticket sold by American as part of our agreement to carry the passenger named on the ticket, bar back-to-back ticketing. In addition, it violates the agencies' contract to act as an agent for American Airlines. Achieving the correct proportion of passengers who purchase the higher unrestricted fares and those who purchase the lower discounted fares allows us to continue offering timely and frequent schedules with the type of service our frequent flyers desire and at a reasonable price. It also enables us to make air fares even more affordable for those who wish to travel for pleasure. Back-to-back ticketing upsets this balance and, if it is allowed to proliferate, will lead to higher air fares and less service for all. Sincerely,
Last edited by JDiver; Apr 9, 2011 at 5:44 pm Reason: insert coded letter for reference
Dec 16, 2010, 5:55 pm
#15
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2003
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The reasoning is that almost all people who will fly a 13,000 mile round trip and stay two days are on a business trip. They will make the trip even if the cost is high (note that the cost will end up being tax-deductable, so the business does not bear the full cost). Therefore, it contributes to airline revenue.