Involuntary bump on AA - Where to complain?
Aug 28, 2005, 10:19 pm
#16
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Posts: 8,937
Originally Posted by JDiver
You are denied boarding because the flight is canceled, or
You are denied boarding because a smaller capacity aircraft was substituted for safety or operational reasons,
You are denied boarding because a smaller capacity aircraft was substituted for safety or operational reasons,
Also, what is a "4-hour stopover"?
Aug 29, 2005, 12:11 pm
#17
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Originally Posted by flyastrojets
Wow. Sorry about this. I'd be curious to know what airport this happened at?
It's always best to resolve a complaint, any complaint, at the airport if time allows. Always ask for the Customer Service Manager on duty. If you are at an airport that AA sources to an outside company, then ask for the supervisor or manager. Otherwise, write a letter and fax it to Customer Relations along with any supporting documentation you might have.
You certainly are entitled to a cash payment for being involuntarily denied boarding, though I should point out that many times vouchers are far more lucrative than cash payments...especially if traveling on a cheap ticket. But it's up to the traveler who's denied to decide what they want.
Involuntary Denied Boardings are reportable to DOT. The airlines are required to report them. I suspect they are under-reported, but in all honesty, in 4 years I never involuntarily denied a single traveler. I'd like to blame it on skill and cunning, but it was really just luck.
In all honesty, it doesn't happen very often, but when it happens to you, it is no fun.
I recommend the following course of action:
Write Customer Relations with details of what happened and what you feel is an acceptable solution to your grievance.
If their response is satisfactory, drop it.
If not, then write them again, tell them why their response is not satisfactory, and restate what you feel is an acceptable solution. At this time, I would probably cc the DOT via email at [email protected] if you want to. You can, of course, copy the DOT from the very beginning if you wish.
If they still don't respond to your satisfaction, then I don't know what to tell you. You mentioned court. Have at it if you wish. Just be aware that AA has a small army of lawyers that live to litigate.
I don't really think things will get that far. Sounds pretty cut and dried that you are entitled to IDB as spelled out in AA's C of C. Customer Relations is normally pretty reasonable. At least that's been my experience.
This is just my 2 cents, others will have more advice, I'm sure. AA needs to hear about this. That agent needs a review of IDB procedures. Do keep us posted. I'd love to hear the outcome of this.
It's always best to resolve a complaint, any complaint, at the airport if time allows. Always ask for the Customer Service Manager on duty. If you are at an airport that AA sources to an outside company, then ask for the supervisor or manager. Otherwise, write a letter and fax it to Customer Relations along with any supporting documentation you might have.
You certainly are entitled to a cash payment for being involuntarily denied boarding, though I should point out that many times vouchers are far more lucrative than cash payments...especially if traveling on a cheap ticket. But it's up to the traveler who's denied to decide what they want.
Involuntary Denied Boardings are reportable to DOT. The airlines are required to report them. I suspect they are under-reported, but in all honesty, in 4 years I never involuntarily denied a single traveler. I'd like to blame it on skill and cunning, but it was really just luck.
In all honesty, it doesn't happen very often, but when it happens to you, it is no fun.I recommend the following course of action:
Write Customer Relations with details of what happened and what you feel is an acceptable solution to your grievance.
If their response is satisfactory, drop it.
If not, then write them again, tell them why their response is not satisfactory, and restate what you feel is an acceptable solution. At this time, I would probably cc the DOT via email at [email protected] if you want to. You can, of course, copy the DOT from the very beginning if you wish.
If they still don't respond to your satisfaction, then I don't know what to tell you. You mentioned court. Have at it if you wish. Just be aware that AA has a small army of lawyers that live to litigate.
I don't really think things will get that far. Sounds pretty cut and dried that you are entitled to IDB as spelled out in AA's C of C. Customer Relations is normally pretty reasonable. At least that's been my experience.
This is just my 2 cents, others will have more advice, I'm sure. AA needs to hear about this. That agent needs a review of IDB procedures. Do keep us posted. I'd love to hear the outcome of this.
Since when does the refudability of the ticket matter? PRICE, maybe, but he wasn't saying anything about the fare, just that it was non-refundable. They ended up getting enough volunteers and then not needing them after all, but this could have been an ugly situation.
Aug 29, 2005, 12:15 pm
#18
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Originally Posted by mwhitted
What's the deal when the IDB is due to weight restrictions? I witnessed this almost happening last night on AE at DFW. They asked for volunteers, but then started calling individual pax up and explaining that it they couldn't get volunteers after 3-4 attempts, these pax would be denied boarding. From what I overheared, the pax were chosen at least partialy based on the fact that they had a non-refundable ticket. Since when does the refudability of the ticket matter? PRICE, maybe, but he wasn't saying anything about the fare, just that it was non-refundable. They ended up getting enough volunteers and then not needing them after all, but this could have been an ugly situation.
Since when does the refudability of the ticket matter? PRICE, maybe, but he wasn't saying anything about the fare, just that it was non-refundable. They ended up getting enough volunteers and then not needing them after all, but this could have been an ugly situation.
Aug 29, 2005, 12:19 pm
#19
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Originally Posted by Spiff
Non-refundable tickets usually are directly related to a lower fare paid. It makes the GA look like less of a jerk by telling the passenger that their cheap ticket makes them more likely to get the boot.
.Cheers.
Aug 29, 2005, 12:30 pm
#20
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Washington, DC
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Posts: 3,229
Originally Posted by mwhitted
What's the deal when the IDB is due to weight restrictions? I witnessed this almost happening last night on AE at DFW. They asked for volunteers, but then started calling individual pax up and explaining that it they couldn't get volunteers after 3-4 attempts, these pax would be denied boarding. From what I overheared, the pax were chosen at least partialy based on the fact that they had a non-refundable ticket. Since when does the refudability of the ticket matter? PRICE, maybe, but he wasn't saying anything about the fare, just that it was non-refundable. They ended up getting enough volunteers and then not needing them after all, but this could have been an ugly situation.
Since when does the refudability of the ticket matter? PRICE, maybe, but he wasn't saying anything about the fare, just that it was non-refundable. They ended up getting enough volunteers and then not needing them after all, but this could have been an ugly situation.When the removal is due to a weight restriction (I believe that it is accepted that a weight restriction is the same thing as subbing a smaller aircraft, but don't have anything to prove it), the DOT's IDB rules do not apply for compensation purposes. Weight restrictions are safety of flight matters. AA technically doesn't have to give you a cent, voucher or otherwise for these, but does provide vouchers for customer service reasons. However, the carriers are still supposed to report these as involuntary denied boardings according to this letter. This letter also applies to late check-ins who are denied.
In my experience, most weight restrictions either were drastically reduced in the end if not completely removed. The load house bases the decision to implement a weight restriction on what's expected for the flight. Close to departure time, you have an accurate count of passengers and bags, and they then know exactly how much the airplane weighs. Thus the restrictions are normally eased, if not removed entirely by departure time, although this is not always the case. I had to deny something like 50 people from an MD80 once because of snow. The slush penalty off a short runway for an MD80 is h*ll.
Last edited by MJonTravel; Aug 29, 2005 at 12:34 pm
Aug 29, 2005, 2:52 pm
#21
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Posts: 8,937
Originally Posted by flyastrojets
When the removal is due to a weight restriction (I believe that it is accepted that a weight restriction is the same thing as subbing a smaller aircraft, but don't have anything to prove it), the DOT's IDB rules do not apply for compensation purposes. Weight restrictions are safety of flight matters. AA technically doesn't have to give you a cent, voucher or otherwise for these, but does provide vouchers for customer service reasons. However, the carriers are still supposed to report these as involuntary denied boardings according to this letter. This letter also applies to late check-ins who are denied.
In my experience, most weight restrictions either were drastically reduced in the end if not completely removed.
In my experience, most weight restrictions either were drastically reduced in the end if not completely removed.
Aug 29, 2005, 3:04 pm
#22
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Orlando, FL, US
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No matter what AA's CoC says, they are subject to these:
http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/publi...tm#overbooking
rules regarding IDB compensation. The rules specify that you can insist on cash. This only applies to IDB because of overbooking, not IDB because of safety issues (weight and balance), or downgauging the aircraft used.
http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/publi...tm#overbooking
rules regarding IDB compensation. The rules specify that you can insist on cash. This only applies to IDB because of overbooking, not IDB because of safety issues (weight and balance), or downgauging the aircraft used.
Aug 29, 2005, 3:12 pm
#23
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: NH
Posts: 5,720
Originally Posted by mvoight
Reminds me of the song 'Sixteen Tons'
"I owe my soul to the company store"
"I owe my soul to the company store"
The other popular song that summer was Patty Page's "Old Cape Cod" Such memories!
That was before the Cape was overrun by development.
Rita
Aug 29, 2005, 4:32 pm
#24
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Washington, DC
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Posts: 3,229
Originally Posted by djk7
No matter what AA's CoC says, they are subject to these:
http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/publi...tm#overbooking
rules regarding IDB compensation. The rules specify that you can insist on cash. This only applies to IDB because of overbooking, not IDB because of safety issues (weight and balance), or downgauging the aircraft used.
http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/publi...tm#overbooking
rules regarding IDB compensation. The rules specify that you can insist on cash. This only applies to IDB because of overbooking, not IDB because of safety issues (weight and balance), or downgauging the aircraft used.
Sep 12, 2005, 11:11 pm
#25
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma
Programs: DL Gold, UA Ag Muti-year WN Companion Pass, A+, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Plat Ntl EmExElite
Posts: 941
Thanks for all the info from everyone on this matter. I faxed a letter to AA Customer Service, and a week later got a form postcard stating they received the letter and were looking into it. The postcard said they were very busy (I guess people are complaining more these days) and it would take longer than they would like to respond.
Oh well I just won't book any American flights until the matter is resolved, and the tally right now is four roundtrips where I could have flown American but chose another carrier. I'll give them another week or so, and file a complaint with the DOT, and maybe they will respond.
Maybe this was an isolated incident that they are honestly investigating, but I am beginning to think they are just hoping I will forget about it, after all I was "volunteered."
Oh well I just won't book any American flights until the matter is resolved, and the tally right now is four roundtrips where I could have flown American but chose another carrier. I'll give them another week or so, and file a complaint with the DOT, and maybe they will respond.
Maybe this was an isolated incident that they are honestly investigating, but I am beginning to think they are just hoping I will forget about it, after all I was "volunteered."
Sep 12, 2005, 11:26 pm
#26
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Join Date: Jun 2005
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Originally Posted by djk7
No matter what AA's CoC says, they are subject to these:
http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/publi...tm#overbooking
rules regarding IDB compensation. The rules specify that you can insist on cash. This only applies to IDB because of overbooking, not IDB because of safety issues (weight and balance), or downgauging the aircraft used.
http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/publi...tm#overbooking
rules regarding IDB compensation. The rules specify that you can insist on cash. This only applies to IDB because of overbooking, not IDB because of safety issues (weight and balance), or downgauging the aircraft used.
Hmm.... looks like something I should print out and have with me
Sep 13, 2005, 2:56 am
#27
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: austin,tx,usa
Programs: *wood plt,mrt plt, aa ex plt
Posts: 284
Digital Picture`
A picture is worth a thousand words.
Next time with your Digital Camera, take a picture with the Agent at the counter, with a sign Involuntary Bump.
Email it to corporate.
Next time with your Digital Camera, take a picture with the Agent at the counter, with a sign Involuntary Bump.
Email it to corporate.
Sep 20, 2005, 1:33 pm
#28
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Received a fax today from American Airlines where they acknowledged that I had been involuntarily bumped from the flight and then explained their procedure for bumping. The letter was only an attempt to show that it wasn't arbitrary, which I did not bring up in the letter.
For the record the order for bumping from this letter is:
1. Passengers who do not meet the minimum check in time requirements
2. Passengers without assigned seats, based on check in times who did not qualify for one of these categories:
3. Passengers with assigned seats, based on check-in time who do not qualify for one of the following categories.
4 AAdvantage/AAdvantage Gold
5. Executive Platinum, Platinum, Emerald and full fare coach passengers
6. Businesss Class passengers
7. First Class Passengers
8. Those passengers who will experience a severe hardship as a result of being denied boarding. These customers might include those who are elderly, disabled, or children traveling alone.
The numbering is how they have the procedure listed in the letter.
Now lets see, I had a seat assignment, had met the check in time requirement, Platinum status, and on a refundable ticket and was bumped, maybe that is why they thought I thought the bump was arbitrary.
The only way they could have followed procedure would be if the plane was full of elderly children flying alone, who were also Executive Platinum flyers, all of whom bought full fare tickets.
They seem to feel that the only thing I am upset about was that the agent wasn't more helpful, and they would contact the Gemeral Manager at the airport. They assured me that "Our staff there will be reminded just how important it is to demonstrate courtesy in situations that have disappointed a good customer." They did assure me in the form letter that they know that my next trip with them would go more smoothly than this one. I'm beginning to think that American has outsourced their customer relations department to a country where english might be a second language.
Since they have chosen to ignore my request for cash compensation I guess now it is time to send a complaint to the DOT.
For the record the order for bumping from this letter is:
1. Passengers who do not meet the minimum check in time requirements
2. Passengers without assigned seats, based on check in times who did not qualify for one of these categories:
3. Passengers with assigned seats, based on check-in time who do not qualify for one of the following categories.
4 AAdvantage/AAdvantage Gold
5. Executive Platinum, Platinum, Emerald and full fare coach passengers
6. Businesss Class passengers
7. First Class Passengers
8. Those passengers who will experience a severe hardship as a result of being denied boarding. These customers might include those who are elderly, disabled, or children traveling alone.
The numbering is how they have the procedure listed in the letter.
Now lets see, I had a seat assignment, had met the check in time requirement, Platinum status, and on a refundable ticket and was bumped, maybe that is why they thought I thought the bump was arbitrary.
The only way they could have followed procedure would be if the plane was full of elderly children flying alone, who were also Executive Platinum flyers, all of whom bought full fare tickets.
They seem to feel that the only thing I am upset about was that the agent wasn't more helpful, and they would contact the Gemeral Manager at the airport. They assured me that "Our staff there will be reminded just how important it is to demonstrate courtesy in situations that have disappointed a good customer." They did assure me in the form letter that they know that my next trip with them would go more smoothly than this one. I'm beginning to think that American has outsourced their customer relations department to a country where english might be a second language.
Since they have chosen to ignore my request for cash compensation I guess now it is time to send a complaint to the DOT.
Sep 20, 2005, 1:45 pm
#29
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Originally Posted by ctuttle
Received a fax today from American Airlines where they acknowledged that I had been involuntarily bumped from the flight...
...Since they have chosen to ignore my request for cash compensation I guess now it is time to send a complaint to the DOT.
...Since they have chosen to ignore my request for cash compensation I guess now it is time to send a complaint to the DOT.
Sep 20, 2005, 3:30 pm
#30
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Washington, DC
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Originally Posted by ctuttle
Received a fax today from American Airlines where they acknowledged that I had been involuntarily bumped from the flight and then explained their procedure for bumping. The letter was only an attempt to show that it wasn't arbitrary, which I did not bring up in the letter.
For the record the order for bumping from this letter is:
1. Passengers who do not meet the minimum check in time requirements
2. Passengers without assigned seats, based on check in times who did not qualify for one of these categories:
3. Passengers with assigned seats, based on check-in time who do not qualify for one of the following categories.
4 AAdvantage/AAdvantage Gold
5. Executive Platinum, Platinum, Emerald and full fare coach passengers
6. Businesss Class passengers
7. First Class Passengers
8. Those passengers who will experience a severe hardship as a result of being denied boarding. These customers might include those who are elderly, disabled, or children traveling alone.
The numbering is how they have the procedure listed in the letter.
Now lets see, I had a seat assignment, had met the check in time requirement, Platinum status, and on a refundable ticket and was bumped, maybe that is why they thought I thought the bump was arbitrary.
The only way they could have followed procedure would be if the plane was full of elderly children flying alone, who were also Executive Platinum flyers, all of whom bought full fare tickets.
They seem to feel that the only thing I am upset about was that the agent wasn't more helpful, and they would contact the Gemeral Manager at the airport. They assured me that "Our staff there will be reminded just how important it is to demonstrate courtesy in situations that have disappointed a good customer." They did assure me in the form letter that they know that my next trip with them would go more smoothly than this one. I'm beginning to think that American has outsourced their customer relations department to a country where english might be a second language.
Since they have chosen to ignore my request for cash compensation I guess now it is time to send a complaint to the DOT.
For the record the order for bumping from this letter is:
1. Passengers who do not meet the minimum check in time requirements
2. Passengers without assigned seats, based on check in times who did not qualify for one of these categories:
3. Passengers with assigned seats, based on check-in time who do not qualify for one of the following categories.
4 AAdvantage/AAdvantage Gold
5. Executive Platinum, Platinum, Emerald and full fare coach passengers
6. Businesss Class passengers
7. First Class Passengers
8. Those passengers who will experience a severe hardship as a result of being denied boarding. These customers might include those who are elderly, disabled, or children traveling alone.
The numbering is how they have the procedure listed in the letter.
Now lets see, I had a seat assignment, had met the check in time requirement, Platinum status, and on a refundable ticket and was bumped, maybe that is why they thought I thought the bump was arbitrary.
The only way they could have followed procedure would be if the plane was full of elderly children flying alone, who were also Executive Platinum flyers, all of whom bought full fare tickets.
They seem to feel that the only thing I am upset about was that the agent wasn't more helpful, and they would contact the Gemeral Manager at the airport. They assured me that "Our staff there will be reminded just how important it is to demonstrate courtesy in situations that have disappointed a good customer." They did assure me in the form letter that they know that my next trip with them would go more smoothly than this one. I'm beginning to think that American has outsourced their customer relations department to a country where english might be a second language.
Since they have chosen to ignore my request for cash compensation I guess now it is time to send a complaint to the DOT.
They didn't say anything about involuntary denied boarding comp in their response? Seems odd...or like a computer read your letter and forgot to respond to the whole thing.
I'd write them back, and cc DOT, or write the DOT with your complaint and cc AA.