I think the OP should have his FF account permanently closed. It is one thing to share information for the benefit of all, but it clearly another when someone takes information and then attempts to sell the information. These kind of things cost us all benefits and cause more restrictions to be placed on all. The damage caused by people that do these things is irreparable.
I think the OP should have his FF account permanently closed and his FT access blocked as well. It is one thing to share information for the benefit of all, but it clearly another when someone takes information and then attempts to sell the information. These kind of things cost us all benefits and cause more restrictions to be placed on all. The damage caused by people that do these things is irreparable.
While I can understand that there may be longer-term implications from a critical mass of such activities as engaged in by the OP, I haven't yet been subjected to quantifiable irreparable damage by the OP's action.
To what irreparable damage have you been subjected (note: past tense) because of what the OP did and got nailed for? Or how soon will it be until you are subjected to irreparable damage because of what the OP did and got nailed for?
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Am I the only one that has read the website and ebay posts of the OP? It is very obvious that the OP is a data miner and steals the information from FT and posts it on his own website for profit. This is illegal as it is a copyright infringement. Every question posted is most likely to further the improper and unethical business practices of the website. I believe the OP would be much better off getting an education in school and then doing tenure at a travel agency or getting a job at an airline before trying to start an internet business that is going to trash his reputation before he graduates.
I read the website and sent him an email stating almost exactly what you posted. His idea of a bus from Los Angeles to Las Vegas is laughable. There are so many buses on that route already, all sponsored by casinos. I-15 on Friday night looks like a train, not buses, there are so many.
His schooling is either not "learning" him anything or he is just in this for a fast buck. The younger generation has a lot to learn.
I read the website and sent him an email stating almost exactly what you posted. His idea of a bus from Los Angeles to Las Vegas is laughable. There are so many buses on that route already, all sponsored by casinos. I-15 on Friday night looks like a train, not buses, there are so many.
His schooling is either not "learning" him anything or he is just in this for a fast buck. The younger generation has a lot to learn.
I know exactly what you mean and how will his service for a charge compete with those casino sponsored buses and charter air services that are FREE for you to come and gamble. I get a lot of offers to fly from ATL to LAS for $200.00 for airfare, food and 3 nights rooms plus other bonuses. Yes I know they want me to gamble, but that is what it would compete against and from LA there are a lot of free ones.
People who violate laws should not be surprised when they get caught and are held accountable; people who violate contractual agreements and terms of service or use who get caught and are held accountable should not be surprised either. And they should not be surprised, IMO, when they get little sympathy from the communities they have chosen to exist in, whetheractual or virtual.
IMO the OP took risks and bet he would not get caught; AA does have employees charged with assuring the company's integrity and profitability by finding out people who violate the terms they have agreed to uphold, and the OP lost his bet. Poor judgement and risk management, at the least, IMO, and I won't even mention the "e" word - which will undoubtedly have future effects on business.
(Stated as views of an individual member of the FlyerTalk community.)
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So we are now at the mercy of some jobsworth in a room somewhere who patrols the internet trying to catch valued customers (hence the vouchers) flouting the rules. Honestly
BTW, I don't think it is American's place to lock someone's account for selling vouchers on. How many times have they sold a seat that you or I have booked once we have paid for it?
I can understand why they do it, but from a service point of view, it completely stinks of policy for policy's sake.
If they read FT, then they really do have too many staff. Maybe they should stop wasting fare-paying passenger's and shareholder's money and try buying a few new planes instead.
The mind boggles sometimes, it really does. Do they want your business or not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonNYC
Certainly makes one wonder..
And, BTW, the folks that lock AAdvantage accounts -do-, in fact, read FT (among the very last of AAdvantage folks that do)-- I wouldn't post about this here if it were me under any circumstances. YMMV.
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I absolutely agree -in my view, the buyer is as bad as the seller -at the end of the day, if there was no market for vouchers, then they would not be on the internet in the first place. I would never buy anything like that (unless I had to be somewhere...) but at the end of the day, I think that this person, judging by the other sites he is on and posts made, is perhaps a serial rule breaker.
I think if you occasionally put the odd U/G voucher on ebay that might be ok, at the end of the day, it is too harsh for American to block his account just for that. On the other hand, if it is done freuently, then the situation is different, i.e. United as well have locked his account. Maybe this says something.
My last post only reflects the views of an average person, without meeting this person, I don't know, but I would imagine that he is a bit of a serial selling free items for profit.
I had someone work for the company I work for once sell on our stock on ebay, undercutting our customers, he was reprimanded, but at the end of the day, if the opportunity is there, people normally take it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinniped
Yes - I think it was pretty well established about 15 years ago that the T-Shirt Trick doesn't hold water. That was the item back then - "Buy a Final Four T-Shirt for $3000 and receive 2 free tickets to the game!" There was a Bic Lighter variant for concerts. Likewise, the White Envelope game with FF vouchers is easily seen for what it is.
Personally, I'm not offended by the idea of selling miles/certs. I don't believe it is any more unethical than selling sports or concert tickets - above face value if the market will bear it, or just to recoup a portion of face value on a game you can't attend. The only reason I don't do it is because I know the airlines are picky about it and I know I'd probably get caught.
The inability to freely trade miles/certs on the open market is one side effect of the fact that we don't own our miles and our miles don't have a formal legal status as a currency, contract, or promise of future benefit. Since the avid frequent flier largely benefits from this nebulous status (both in the airlines' accounting and our own tax filing), I'm willing to live with the fact that I can't sell my miles/certs to a third party.
So we are now at the mercy of some jobsworth in a room somewhere who patrols the internet trying to catch valued customers (hence the vouchers) flouting the rules. Honestly
BTW, I don't think it is American's place to lock someone's account for selling vouchers on. How many times have they sold a seat that you or I have booked once we have paid for it?
I can understand why they do it, but from a service point of view, it completely stinks of policy for policy's sake.
If they read FT, then they really do have too many staff. Maybe they should stop wasting fare-paying passenger's and shareholder's money and try buying a few new planes instead.
The mind boggles sometimes, it really does. Do they want your business or not?
It is against the rules that each and everyone of us agreed to in order to participate in the program. If you don't like the rules then don't participate. They will still let you fly if you are not a member of the ffp. If you want the benefits, follow the rules. The miles are NOT YOURS! You do NOT own them in any way, shape or fassion. Get over it. They belong to the airlines and they are theirs to do with as they please, including but not limited to, cancelling, deleting, reducing, closing, etc...
I absolutely agree -in my view, the buyer is as bad as the seller -at the end of the day, if there was no market for vouchers, then they would not be on the internet in the first place. I would never buy anything like that (unless I had to be somewhere...) but at the end of the day, I think that this person, judging by the other sites he is on and posts made, is perhaps a serial rule breaker.
I think if you occasionally put the odd U/G voucher on ebay that might be ok, at the end of the day, it is too harsh for American to block his account just for that. On the other hand, if it is done freuently, then the situation is different, i.e. United as well have locked his account. Maybe this says something.
My last post only reflects the views of an average person, without meeting this person, I don't know, but I would imagine that he is a bit of a serial selling free items for profit.
I had someone work for the company I work for once sell on our stock on ebay, undercutting our customers, he was reprimanded, but at the end of the day, if the opportunity is there, people normally take it.
"If the opportunity is there, people normally take it" I'll remember that the next time someone cuts me off in traffic, and I have my gun and he/she is an easy target. I wonder what that excuse would get me?
This could not have been a well thought out post. C'mon, that is like saying I understand why the employee took the money from the safe, it was there and no one was watching so I had an opportunity and took it.
The nerve of some people to take this attitude about things.
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Mike,
I have to admit and apologize that I jumped from page 1 to page 5 and didn't really read the full story.
I think that at the end of the day, someone like this person who is evidently a serial "fraudster" (if that isn't too strong a word) is evidently making a profit out of dodgy transactions. I think, however, that suspending his account may be a bit heavy handed, but then again if he has done it before (and according to the post about United doing the same thing) then it is probably in the company's best interest to block his account. Ultimately, the company would not have locked his account if it was not profitable. AA is a company and just like any other company, they bend the rules in order to make money. They obviously think that they will lose money by this type of thing carrying on and they have taken action. I think that whatever the principle of it, people will always flout the rules, maybe not to that extent however....
I agree in principle with AA, and apologize again for skim-reading the whole post. My argument is therefore something like; the odd voucher here/there is ok, selling as many as this person is not ok and devalues the whole idea of the voucher in the first place, but that's another story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nako
The mind also boggles when one reads posts defending someone breaking the rules simply because they happen to be a good customer.
Click on the OP and read the other threads that the OP has posted. Then read the website. He knows "EVERYTHING" about the airline business, and yet he asks these questions.
Once he is done here, he will be on one of the other threads like Southwest complaining about the same thing. The OP has not learned from UA and probably will not learn from AA and may not be learning at NYU. I do hope I am wrong for societies sake.
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Just to try to defend myself a little bit...
First of all, I will comment on "the website." I indeed did once engage in the sale of UA vouchers, and UA vouchers ONLY though that website.
My infraction with AA really is limited to a couple that I just threw on eBay one day... I never had any type of source for obtaining mass amounts of AA upgrades. Whenever I fly AA (which is now my airline of choice), I either upgrade with miles, 500-mile stickers, or just fly Y. I have never used an illegitimate or purchased upgrade on AA.
Further, "that website" no longer engages in the sale or trade of any vouchers whatsoever; it stays up right now to assist travelers on a no-charge basis. Indeed there is the "VIP" page which charges $30/month, but that was an absolute flop and has no paying customers -- of course, why would I expect anyone to pay when I advise any questions anyone asks me for free.
Essentially right now, I had a few AA vouchers I was not going to use, and I threw them up on eBay amongst many others one day -- that does represent my total offense to AA.
Finally, one of you guys quoted the VIP forum saying that we know "EVERYTHING" about the airline industry... thanks for pointing that out, I will be fixing that now, don't know why I ever wrote that...
So we are now at the mercy of some jobsworth in a room somewhere who patrols the internet trying to catch valued customers (hence the vouchers) flouting the rules. Honestly 
Then read the website.
about the airline business, and yet he asks these questions.
