Programs: AA Gold 1MM, UA 1K, MR Plat, HH/SPG Gold
Posts: 17,806
Quote:
Originally Posted by loudgonzo
How about the people that sell and list a different item and include vouchers, VIP's, etc. I remember reading somewhere about someone auctioning an envelope, and included inside as a bonus were either miles or upgrades. Even though we all know that they are in fact selling these benefits, can their accounts also be frozen/closed?
Yes - I think it was pretty well established about 15 years ago that the T-Shirt Trick doesn't hold water. That was the item back then - "Buy a Final Four T-Shirt for $3000 and receive 2 free tickets to the game!" There was a Bic Lighter variant for concerts. Likewise, the White Envelope game with FF vouchers is easily seen for what it is.
Personally, I'm not offended by the idea of selling miles/certs. I don't believe it is any more unethical than selling sports or concert tickets - above face value if the market will bear it, or just to recoup a portion of face value on a game you can't attend. The only reason I don't do it is because I know the airlines are picky about it and I know I'd probably get caught.
The inability to freely trade miles/certs on the open market is one side effect of the fact that we don't own our miles and our miles don't have a formal legal status as a currency, contract, or promise of future benefit. Since the avid frequent flier largely benefits from this nebulous status (both in the airlines' accounting and our own tax filing), I'm willing to live with the fact that I can't sell my miles/certs to a third party.
Programs: AA EXP, MR PLAT PREMIER, NWA SLVR, US PLAT
Posts: 1,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by GUWonder
In the situation mentioned by the OP, it seems like the person out the most will be the seller. The buyer could wind up with a useless piece of paper that cost them money, but from the sound of the OP it seems like the seller is taking more of a hit than the buyers. Are buyers paying several hundred dollars for "domestic upgrade from a full-fare economy class ticket"? Sounds like thoughtlessness to me too.
Perhaps the buyers are the ones that reported the OP to AA and Ebay had nothing to do with it.
I have a mental image for some non-frequent flyer purchasing a $300 upgrade that required a $1500 ticket to use talking to a TA at AA. "I paid $300 for this on Ebay" "What?"
I remember reading somewhere about someone auctioning an envelope. Even though we all know that they are in fact selling these benefits, can their accounts also be frozen/closed?
I think one would ignore the envelope and go after the contraband, regardless of how it is disguised or dressed. It is part of the package. And AA probably would not mind you having the envelope you purchase and would not ask for it back.
There is zero reason to believe that ebay gave up the info in this case-- zero.
As others have pointed out, this kid has gone out of his way to hang himself-- he has a WEBSITE for this purpose.
Again, stop blaming ebay's privacy, etc. policy-- has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
TM, IK.
As for those who might like to occasionally barter or whatever-- cases like this make that FAR MORE difficult and should be punished in the most severe way possible lest we end up with "use miles for account holder's name only" type restriction.
Perhaps the buyers are the ones that reported the OP to AA and Ebay had nothing to do with it.
I have a mental image for some non-frequent flyer purchasing a $300 upgrade that required a $1500 ticket to use talking to a TA at AA. "I paid $300 for this on Ebay" "What?"
eBay feedback would be interesting to check out.
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This game is not as much fun as it used to be: 2008/2009 Frequent Flyer Program Fleecing Award goes to Delta Airlines
It is in the ebay agreement that they will release your information. If you are computer savvy in the least you can get the information without asking ebay.
There is zero reason to believe that ebay gave up the info in this case-- zero.
....
Again, stop blaming ebay's privacy, etc. policy-- has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
In other cases that, as you brought up, might lead to a "'use miles for account holder's name only' type restriction", ebay giving up information does come into play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonNYC
As others have pointed out, this kid has gone out of his way to hang himself-- he has a WEBSITE for this purpose.
Yes, absolutely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonNYC
As for those who might like to occasionally barter or whatever-- cases like this make that FAR MORE difficult and should be punished in the most severe way possible lest we end up with "use miles for account holder's name only" type restriction.
"'Use miles for account holder's name only' type restriction" across the board with regard to AAdvantage because of this or cases like this? Not likely tomorrow or anytime very soon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drbond
It is in the ebay agreement that they will release your information. If you are computer savvy in the least you can get the information without asking ebay.
Often yes; but not always. eBay complicity helps.
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This game is not as much fun as it used to be: 2008/2009 Frequent Flyer Program Fleecing Award goes to Delta Airlines
We're customers, along with employees in a few cases, and the airlines are all big businesses trying to maximize their revenue from every source. They probably view FT with mixed emotions-both as a way to connect with some of their most loyal customers and a potential public relations nightmare.
When someone publicly describes ways (on FT, eBay, or whatever) that they have violated the terms & conditions of a FFP, it is not unreasonable that they will want to punish this customer. When someone is consistently negative about a particular airline, they might also want to contain the damage.
For these reasons, I personally focus my postings on the FFPs/Airlines that I have had the most consistently positive experience: Continental and Southwest. In particular I feel that in the past two other major airlines have done things that encourage me to steer my business elsewhere, i.e. in one case I had a lifetime membership to an airline lounge that became a multi-year membership after airline a bought airline b, in the other I was an elite for a year and 50,000 miles without an upgrade while at the same time occasionally escorted out of the elite check-in line because of my young, at the time, age. For the same reason I have a strong preference for Enterprise because they would rent to me before I turned 25.
At the end of the day, the United States is a free country; if you live here and feel that there is an unmet need, you are free to start your own airline. If you choose to use the products and services provided by someone else, you need to follow their rules.
And he did not learn his lesson the first time he violated the rules. The miles are NOT his property and therefore cannot be sold, traded or bartered in any way. I am confused however, being that he is a student at NYU, I would have thought that he/she would have learned some ethics by now or at least how to spell traveler. Here was the final post by the OP stating that he would NEVER do it again.
Quote:
Originally posted by unitedPSbusiness in another thread: I know very well that 60k per year of travel is NOTHING to United. But, it is business, and it is revenue, hands down.
I never intended to screw United over; I bought and sold a product, while trying to provide the best customer service possible, by doing nearly anything my customers wanted me to do.
Yeah, I ticked off United, but I moved out of their territory. I will not sell upgrades anymore for obvious reasons, but I am ready to work on a new venture to assist people like yourselves with your travel.
I guess at NYU the definition of NEVER is 3 and a half months?
...AA probably would not mind you having the envelope you purchase and would not ask for it back.
I bet those joyless sadistic brutes would even send along the envelope (or a suitable substitute) that might have never made it to the purchaser in the first place.
In other cases that, as you brought up, might lead to a "'use miles for account holder's name only' type restriction", ebay giving up information does come into play.
...Often yes; but not always. eBay complicity helps.
I'm taking facts-- and nothing other than that. I have unusual access to them.
Carry on, however, I won't stand in your way. Enjoy.
Am I the only one that has read the website and ebay posts of the OP? It is very obvious that the OP is a data miner and steals the information from FT and posts it on his own website for profit. This is illegal as it is a copyright infringement. Every question posted is most likely to further the improper and unethical business practices of the website. I believe the OP would be much better off getting an education in school and then doing tenure at a travel agency or getting a job at an airline before trying to start an internet business that is going to trash his reputation before he graduates.
Programs: AA EXP 1MM, Silver CO, BA Blue, Silver MR, Gold SPG
Posts: 2,876
Quote:
Originally Posted by worldwidedreamer
When someone is consistently negative about a particular airline, they might also want to contain the damage.
For these reasons, I personally focus my postings on the FFPs/Airlines that I have had the most consistently positive experience: Continental and Southwest. .
I strongly disagree with your viewpoint here. While you of course have the right to not post negative comments about any airlines, I do not think that the airlines will go after you if you post negative experiences. The PR nightmare will be hard to control if your statements are based in facts and describe how you feel and how it affected you.
Now, if you blatantly lie about an airline, say UA, and claim their mechanics in DEN smoke crack on a daily basis before checking the landing gear, I suspect UA might want to stop that.
But, if you have a valid problem with an airline, post it on here. We need to hear about it and the airline will NOT go after you. I am certain of that.
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Again, stop blaming ebay's privacy, etc. policy-- has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
I would add that most folks who sell these vouchers, in gerneral, are not very bright. It is pretty easy for the fraud department at any airline to figure out what member account the miles or SWUs/ eVIPs are coming from when people have user names like "jschmales" from "Butte, MT."
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"Knowledge is good" - Emil Faber
Sounds like thoughtlessness to me too.
