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DL Encroaches Further on AS' Turf - Master Thread

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Old Jul 30, 2014, 2:10 am
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Last edit by: eponymous_coward
To try to make sense of what's all happening between AS and DL, the idea arose during the recent Alaska do to create a compendium in the wiki of the various stages of the current spat. Please add your knowledge where you can!

Timeline of events:

**proposed format for new route announcements**
mm/dd/yy [date of announcement] Airline XXX-YYY [new vs changed] [frequency] dd/mm/yy [date of service/change] Airline Press Release link | FT thread/post link
  1. 2008: Delta and Northwest merge, Delta's staff takes over relationship with Alaska
  2. 06/05/09 Alaska ATL - SEA New 1x daily 23/10/09 AS Announcement | FT Thread
  3. 2011: Alaska allegedly (using data gleaned from codeshare sales) tries to lower the ratio of the fare it pays Delta on codeshare itineraries
  4. 08/10/12: The infamous "joint" Seattle press conference where Delta CEO Richard Anderson announces they will ramp up international service in Seattle (AS CEO Brad Tilden stays quiet in the background) -- DL Announcement | FT Thread
  5. 01/11/12 Alaska SLC - SEA New 2x daily 04/04/13 AS Announcement | FT Thread
  6. 25/02/13 Delta announces resumption of SEA-ANC, new SEA-LAS. Hard to find press release/news, but this site mentions it.
  7. 02/05/13 Alaska ATL - PDX New 1x daily 26/08/13 AS Announcement
  8. 01/10/13 Delta SEA - LAS Increase from 1x - 3x daily 06/01/14 -> 5x daily 01/04/14 DL Announcement | Post #1
  9. 01/10/13 Delta SEA - SFO New 6x daily 29/03/14 -> 7x daily 05/06/14 DL Announcement | Post #1
  10. 01/10/13 Delta SEA - LAX Increase from 5x - 7x daily 05/06/14 DL Announcement |Post #1
  11. 05/11/13 Delta SEA - SAN New 4x daily 02/06/14 DL Announcement | Post #77
  12. 05/11/13 Delta SEA - ANC Increase 1x to 2x daily summer seasonal 05/06/14 DL Announcement | Post #90
  13. 05/11/13 Delta SEA - PDX New 4x daily 02/09/14 DL Announcement | Post #77
  14. 06/12/13 Alaska SLC - PDX 09/06/14 AS Announcement | FT Thread
  15. 06/12/13 Alaska SLC - SAN 10/06/14 AS Announcement | FT Thread
  16. 06/12/13 Alaska SLC - LAX 11/06/14 AS Announcement | FT Thread
  17. 06/12/13 Alaska SLC - SJC 12/06/14 AS Announcement | FT Thread
  18. 17/12/13 Delta SEA - ANC 29/05/14 (increased from 2x-3x daily) Thread [link needed] DL Announcement
  19. 17/12/13 Delta SEA - JNU 29/05/14 Thread [link needed] DL Announcement | Post #268
  20. 17/12/13 Delta SEA - SJC 29/05/14 Thread [link needed] DL Announcement
  21. 20/12/13 Alaska SLC - BOI 16/06/14 New 1x Daily AS Announcement
  22. 20/12/13 Alaska SLC - LAS 16/06/14 New 2x Daily AS Announcement
  23. 20/12/13 Alaska SLC - SFO 18/06/14 New 1x Daily AS Announcement
  24. 10/02/14 Delta PHX - SEA 20/12/14 New 5x Daily CRJ-900 DL Announcement
  25. 10/02/14 Delta PSP - SEA 20/12/14 New 1x Daily CRJ-900 Winter Season DL Announcement
  26. 10/02/14 Delta TUS - SEA 20/12/14 New Saturday CRJ-900 Winter Season DL Announcement
  27. 10/02/14 Delta HNL - SEA 20/12/14 Increase 1x to 2x Daily 757-200/757-300 DL Announcement
  28. 11/02/14 Alaska DTW - SEA 04/09/14 New 1x Daily AS Announcement
  29. 11/02/14 Alaska MSY - SEA 12/06/14 New 1x Daily 737-800 AS Announcement
  30. 11/02/14 Alaska SEA - TPA 20/06/14 New 1x Daily 737-800 AS Announcement
  31. 26/02/14 Delta Delta changes SkyMiles to revenue based points/miles DL Announcement
  32. 28/03/14 Alaska BWI - SEA 02/09/14 New 1x Daily 737-800 AS Announcement
  33. 28/03/14 Alaska ABQ - SEA 18/09/14 New 1x Daily 737-800 AS Announcement
  34. 28/03/14 Alaska ATL - PDX 01/09/14 Discontinued 1x Daily 737-800 AS Announcement
  35. 17/03/14 Delta BOI - LAX 05/16/14 New 1x Daily E-175 DL Announcement
  36. 09/05/14 Alaska CUN - SEA 06/11/14 New 1x Daily 737-800 Seasonal AS Announcement
  37. 27/05/14 Delta GEG - SEA 03/11/14 New 4x Daily CRJ-700 DL Announcement
  38. 27/05/14 Delta SEA - YYC 03/11/14 New 2x Daily E-175 DL Announcement
  39. 27/05/14 Delta OGG - SEA 20/12/14 New 1x Daily 757-200 DL Announcement
  40. 27/05/14 Delta BZN - SEA 20/12/14 New Saturday E-175 Winter Season (Flight will op 1x Daily from 20/12/14-04/01/15) DL Announcement
  41. 27/05/14 Delta SEA - SJD 20/12/14 New Saturday A319 Winter Season DL Announcement
  42. 27/05/14 Delta PVR - SEA 20/12/14 New Saturday A319 Winter Season DL Announcement
  43. 27/05/14 Alaska Announces 11% increase in SEA flying for Spring 2015 AS Announcement
  44. 27/05/14 Alaska BOI - SEA 08/03/15 increase from 8x to 9x Daily Q400 AS Announcement
  45. 27/05/14 Alaska BOS - SEA 08/03/15 increase from 2x to 3x Daily 737-800/737-900 AS Announcement
  46. 27/05/14 Alaska ORD - SEA 08/03/15 increase from 3x to 4x Daily 737-800/737-900 AS Announcement
  47. 27/05/14 Alaska DEN - SEA 08/03/15 increase from 4x to 5x Daily 737 AS Announcement
  48. 27/05/14 Alaska FAI - SEA 08/03/15 increase from 3x to 4x Daily 737 AS Announcement
  49. 27/05/14 Alaska PSP - SEA 08/03/15 increase from 3x to 4x Daily 737 Seasonal AS Announcement
  50. 27/05/14 Alaska SEA - SMF 08/03/15 increase from 5x to 6x Daily 737 AS Announcement
  51. 27/05/14 Alaska LAX - SEA 08/03/15 increase from 12x to 13x Daily 737 AS Announcement
  52. 27/05/14 Alaska PDX - SEA 08/03/15 increase from 24x to 27x Daily Q400 AS Announcement
  53. 27/05/14 Alaska GEG - SEA 08/03/15 replace 2x Daily Q400 with 737 AS Announcement
  54. 27/05/14 Alaska SEA - SNA 08/03/15 increase from 7x to 8x Daily 737-700/737-800 AS Announcement
  55. 08/07/14 Alaska PDX - SJD 03/11/14 New 4x Weekly 737-800/737-900 Seasonal AS Announcement
  56. 08/07/14 Alaska PDX - PVR 04/11/14 New 3x Weekly 737-800/737-900 Seasonal AS Announcement
  57. 13/11/14 Alaska IAD - SEA 11/03/15 New 1x Daily 737-800/737-900 AS Announcement
  58. 14/11/14 Delta seeks 30 (!) gates at SEA Bloomberg story
  59. 19/11/14 Delta adds SEA-DEN/BOI/SMF/KTN/SIT Summer '15 DL Press Release | FT Thread
  60. 11/25/14 Alaska Adds SEA-MKE NEW daily E-175 starting July 1, 2015 AS Press Release
  61. 11/25/14 Alaska Adds SEA-OKC NEW daily E-175 starting July 1, 2015 AS Press Release
  62. 22/02/15 Delta Announces 717 service to operate on SEA-LAX/LAS/PHX flights DL Press Release and then pulls LAS/PHX service back to regional jets. LAX service remains on 737 equipment (Delta.com)
  63. 22/02/15 Delta Extends SEA-JNU to year round service using CRJ-900 outside of summer DL Press Release
  64. 22/02/15 Delta Extends SEA-FAI to year round service using E-175 outside of summer DL Press Release
  65. 22/02/15 Delta Extends SEA-PVR/SJD seasonal Saturday service to October 3, 2015 DL Press Release and then pulls it back to start December 19, 2015 (Delta.com)
  66. 22/02/15 Delta Adds 2nd SEA-PSP seasonal flight CRJ-700 starting December 19, 2015DL Press Release
  67. 22/02/15 Delta Increases seasonal SEA-TUS Saturday flight to Daily using CRJ-700 starting December 19, 2015DL Press Release
  68. 22/02/15 Delta Adds SEA-KOA NEW daily 757-200 starting December 19, 2015DL Press Release
  69. 10/03/15 Alaska Adds SEA-JFK NEW daily 737-800 starting September 16, 2015 AS Press Release
  70. 28/04/15 Alaska Adds SEA-BNA NEW daily 737-800 starting September 23, 2015 AS Press Release
  71. 28/04/15 Alaska Adds SEA-RDU NEW daily 737-800 starting October 1, 2015 AS Press Release
  72. 28/04/15 Alaska Adds SEA-CHS NEW 4x/weekly 737-800 starting November 16, 2015 AS Press Release
  73. 14/05/15 Alaska Announces Preferred Plus Seating options AS Press Release
  74. 26/05/15 Delta Adds SEA-BZN Daily year round CRJ-700 on Aug 1, 2015 DL Press Release
  75. 26/05/15 Delta Adds SEA-PSC NEW 3x/day CRJ-700 on Nov 1, 2015 DL Press Release
  76. 26/05/15 Delta Adds SEA-MCO NEW 1x/day 757-200 on Dec 19, 2015 DL Press Release
  77. 26/05/15 Delta Adds SEA-BOS NEW 1x/day 737-800 on April 4, 2016 DL Press Release
  78. 26/05/15 Delta Adds SEA-YYJ NEW 3x/day CRJ-700 on April 4, 2016 DL Press Release
  79. 26/05/15 Delta Announces end to SEA-HND (Tokyo Haneda) service effective September 30. Route authority to be transferred to American to operate Los Angeles - Haneda. Seattle Times
  80. 07/22/15 Alaska announces partnership with Hainan Airlines which will reduce dependence on Delta for traffic to/from Asia AS Announcement | FT Thread
  81. 08/05/15 Alaska announces Boardroom members can access American Admirals Club starting 15 Aug and on 17 Oct that Former US Airways flights will be eligible for earn and burn miles FT Thread
  82. 09/22/15 Alaska announces partnership with Icelandair Icelandair Announcement
  83. 10/22/15 Alaska Opens New North Satellite Boardroom. AS Press Release
  84. 10/22/15 Alaska Alaska announces codeshare agreement with Emirates. AS Press Release
  85. 12/18/15 Delta Adds SEA-MSO, SEA-BIL and SEA-YEG NEW with CRJ-900/700 equipment operated by Skywest Routesonline (MSO) Routesonline (BIL) Routesonline (YEG)
  86. 01/01/16 Alaska and Delta: no more reciprocal Board Room/Sky Club Benefits
  87. 04/04/16 Alaska Alaska Air Group announces acquisition of Virgin America (Pending Government Approval). AS Press Release
  88. 05/10/16 Alaska Announces Japan Airlines as new Mileage Plan Member and codeshare partner. AS Press Release
  89. 05/11/16 DL adds Shuttle Service to Seattle (SFO and LAX)
  90. 06/21/16 Delta Will switch SEA-LHR from Delta to Virgin Atlantic using 787-9 starting March 26, 2017. Delta's 767-300ER will be reallocated seasonally to a 4x/week service on PDX-LHR from May 26, 2107-Oct 29, 2017. DL Press Release
  91. 06/21/16 Delta Add SEA-SUN Daily Dec 21, 2016-Jan 2, 2017 and Saturday's only from Jan 7-Mar 25, 2017 with CRJ-700. Routesonline | Delta.com
  92. 06/29/16 Alaska Adds SEA-SBP (San Luis Obispo) Daily year round E175 operated by SkyWest on April 17, 2017. AS Press Release
  93. 07/13/16 Alaska Adding seasonal flights to SEA-SUN. Double Daily Q400 Dec 16-Jan 2 and an added Sat/Sun from Feb 18-Mar 26, 2017. AS Press Release
  94. 07/21/16 Alaska Increasing SEA-EWR to 3 Daily flights with 737 starting May 14, 2017. AS Press Release
  95. 07/21/16 Alaska Adds SEA-ICT (Wichita) NEW daily E175 operated by SkyWest starting April 13, 2017. AS Press Release
  96. 07/21/16 Alaska Adds SEA-IND (Indianapolis) NEW daily 737 starting May 14, 2017. AS Press Release
  97. 08/14/16 Delta Adds 2nd SEA-BOS Daily 737-800 starting June 8, 2017. DL Press Release | Routesonline
  98. 08/14/16 Delta Adds SEA-EUG NEW 3x daily CRJ-700 starting April 1, 2017. Routesonline
  99. 08/14/16 Delta Adds SEA-RDU NEW daily 737-800 starting June 8, 2017. Routesonline
  100. 08/31/16 Delta discontinues SEA-BIL nonstop flights. Delta.com
  101. 08/31/16 Delta discontinues SEA-JNU from year round to seasonal until May 19, 2017. Delta.com
  102. 09/05/16 Delta discontinues SEA-MSO and SEA-BZN nonstop flights. Delta.com
  103. 10/21/2016 Delta opens a beautiful, spacious, new lounge at SeaTac, further showing how uninspiring the Board Rooms are.
  104. 3/2/2020 Delta (re)adds SEA-LHR, adds SEA-CMH, SEA-DFW, more frequencies on existing routes. Delta.com
  105. Further chronology? Please add! Loss of benefits, etc.
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DL Encroaches Further on AS' Turf - Master Thread

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Old Dec 9, 2013, 10:39 am
  #256  
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Originally Posted by pdxasflyer
Or even CX! But then at that point, they would likely be asked to simply join OneWorld.
CX is great but I need a way to earn EQMs TATL without going to Chicago first. Big hole in the AS proposition otherwise.
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Old Dec 9, 2013, 12:09 pm
  #257  
 
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Originally Posted by BearX220
Another thing I think will come from the US/AA merger is pressure on AS to choose between DL and AA/BA. Distilling the domestic scene down to just three megacarriers throws a bright, stark spotlight on AS as the Switzerland-neutral player working both sides of the street.
...Like a dad sitting down with a free-spirit daughter who's dating around, telling her it's high time she got married.
Maybe. I think AS will manage to be the Swiss bank of mileage programs for a while to come. There's no real downside for AA or DL in leaving the relationship, but by terminating, the push AS very hard to the competition.
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Old Dec 9, 2013, 1:19 pm
  #258  
 
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Originally Posted by pdxasflyer
^ Enjoy your trip tomorrow! Would love to hear about your AF A380 experience when you return. And, Paris at Christmas time will be stunning! Have fun!
will do and post some pics! Will try to post while waiting for doors to close
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Old Dec 9, 2013, 1:59 pm
  #259  
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Another perspective:

http://www.thestreet.com/story/12142...as-rating.html

http://www.wkrb13.com/markets/237423...sche-bank-alk/
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Old Dec 9, 2013, 2:15 pm
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Being PDX-based, I really hope that AS continues its relationship with DL (and vice versa). The AA/US network out of PDX is dismal. I love the service of AS and the benefits of being Gold 75K but I'd probably have to jump to DL if the partnership ended. It seems to me that if Delta left AS Mileage Plan, then other SkyTeam carriers like Air France, KLM and Aeromexico wouldn't be far behind. And that would leave a huge hole in MP. Just guessing. Anyway, I hope that it makes sense for both airlines to continue, even if it isn't as close a relationship as in the past.
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Old Dec 9, 2013, 4:02 pm
  #261  
 
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Originally Posted by pdxray
Being PDX-based, I really hope that AS continues its relationship with DL (and vice versa). The AA/US network out of PDX is dismal. I love the service of AS and the benefits of being Gold 75K but I'd probably have to jump to DL if the partnership ended. It seems to me that if Delta left AS Mileage Plan, then other SkyTeam carriers like Air France, KLM and Aeromexico wouldn't be far behind. And that would leave a huge hole in MP. Just guessing. Anyway, I hope that it makes sense for both airlines to continue, even if it isn't as close a relationship as in the past.
I agree that losing DL while in itself does not bother me losing the AF does but then One World works for me
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Old Dec 9, 2013, 5:35 pm
  #262  
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Originally Posted by edgewood49
I agree that losing DL while in itself does not bother me losing the AF does but then One World works for me
Does af fly to Portland now? (I left there a few years ago and we only had nrt and ams both on nw/dl.)
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Old Dec 9, 2013, 8:35 pm
  #263  
 
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Originally Posted by ANC RED-EYE
On AA international config 763, I thought MCE might have a bit more recline. Otherwise, on AA and DL domestic configs, I MUCH prefer the 2nd exit row window. Interestingly, I find the exit rows much easier to score on AA and DL than on AS, and I've never understood why. I honestly just think that AS flights ex-ANC are simply saturated with elites.
All the DL medallions are in EC seats, leaving the exit rows frequently open. I suspect AA is the same.

Originally Posted by WhIteSidE
5) As an "armchair coach", if I were going to try a significant expansion of AS, I'd look towards a more "eastern" hub before I'd start international flying. A prime location might be Kansas City (MCI) and/or Saint Louis (STL). Me personal preference would be MCI. It's well located to fly Q400s all over the midwest, which should be profitable routes. In addition, it's Combined Statistical Area (CSA) is only slightly smaller than Portland, OR. There's no incumbent hub there (even WN doesn't consider it a "focus city"). It would allow AS to start up a lot of midhaul flying in the midwest and compete with DL at DTW and ATL and AA at ORD and DFW while only opening a single hub. There's some goofy gates their (thanks TWA), but with a mix of 737s and Q400s, AS could probably make it work. In addition, I might consider beefing up 737 service in PHX (maybe a "focus city" for AS). There's strong AS service from SEA to the southwest, and adding focus in PHX will allow them to serve the southwest with reasonable flight times.

The next step after establishing a mid-continent hub (say +3-5 years) would be an east coast hub. That's a hard one since most of the large airports on the Eastern Seaboard are slot restricted. A potential close partnership with B6 might make sense. They have a strong JFK hub, and AS (with strong MCI, PDX, SEA and LAX) could give B6 LAX space in exchange for JFK space.

With hubs in SEA, PDX, LAX and MCI and strong focus cities in HNL, SAN, JFK and PHX, I think AS could reasonable grow to the neighborhood of 300-400 planes which is probably where they'd need to be before they could reasonably consider adding a long-haul type.

The bottom line is that AS plays it's game very, very well. Rather than start playing Delta's game, they should stick to theirs. The Q400s (while not wildly popular with FTers), are super cheap to operate, and are ~70 seat class airplanes (which most regional airlines are moving to), which AS can operate at a fraction of the cost of E170s, etc. These should be big money makers for AS, and with solid service from both the NW (SEA/PDX) and good connecting service through MCI, they could pick off a lot of traffic from the center of the country to the coasts.
The Combined AA/US airline won't keep all their hubs. Much like DL/NW, eventually someone will get whittled down (MEM first, then CVG for DL). If AS did take your route into MCI, there would probably be something with lots of capacity within 4-6 years.

Alternatively, AS could just take over MEM or CVG as a pseudo east coast hub. The space is there and you could probably get into the midwest and east coast effectively from either. Now wouldn't that be a shot across DL's bow?

Originally Posted by WhIteSidE
In addition, according to Wikipedia, 7 of SY's 17 737s are -700s. The big problem with the -700 series is that it's just too small to be profitable.
Have you informed WN of this?

(I assume you're thinking of the -600 which is tiny, didn't sell well, and Boeing discontinued)

Originally Posted by WhIteSidE
Maybe. I think AS will manage to be the Swiss bank of mileage programs for a while to come. There's no real downside for AA or DL in leaving the relationship, but by terminating, the push AS very hard to the competition.
The downside for DL is that they lose their west coast feed routes for all the new Asia-bound flights. Until they have a lot more flights out of SEA, many places require a second connection thru SLC. That's not attractive for their customers.
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Old Dec 9, 2013, 8:47 pm
  #264  
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Originally Posted by WestSideBilly
Alternatively, AS could just take over MEM or CVG as a pseudo east coast hub. The space is there and you could probably get into the midwest and east coast effectively from either. Now wouldn't that be a shot across DL's bow?
I hear gates can be had pretty cheaply at PIT.
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Old Dec 9, 2013, 9:56 pm
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Originally Posted by pdxray
Being PDX-based, I really hope that AS continues its relationship with DL (and vice versa). The AA/US network out of PDX is dismal. I love the service of AS and the benefits of being Gold 75K but I'd probably have to jump to DL if the partnership ended. It seems to me that if Delta left AS Mileage Plan, then other SkyTeam carriers like Air France, KLM and Aeromexico wouldn't be far behind. And that would leave a huge hole in MP. Just guessing. Anyway, I hope that it makes sense for both airlines to continue, even if it isn't as close a relationship as in the past.
PDX based myself, seems really all US is adding to the AA relationship from PDX is more flights to PHX, a market that AS has already backed away from considerably from PDX. Makes me afraid PHX will go the way of DEN from PDX on AS. They do have CLT and PHL but I don't know how much of that traffic is going just to those cities so that could be taken away with more AA to ORD or DFW flights.

As to your comment I too prefer what DL has to offer from PDX, but I do like the ability to get main cabin extra on AA as a gold and even an MVP, although dollars to donuts that one is going away ASAP after the merger.
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Old Dec 10, 2013, 6:38 am
  #266  
 
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Originally Posted by moondog
Does af fly to Portland now? (I left there a few years ago and we only had nrt and ams both on nw/dl.)
No and sadly they ceded SEA-CDG to DL but it's a quick hop down to SFO or LAX today we are doing that PDX-LAX then AF 380 to CDG. Their schedule reflects adding another 380 SFO-CDG the good news about this is that award seats are much easier to obtain. Especially if you want to go business.
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Old Dec 12, 2013, 6:02 am
  #267  
 
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Originally Posted by pdxasflyer
^ Enjoy your trip tomorrow! Would love to hear about your AF A380 experience when you return. And, Paris at Christmas time will be stunning! Have fun!
Well, here in Rome after taking AF 065 LAX-CDG. As promised,

That is one big airplane! We sat in seats 61A/B upper deck business class. It was the best international flight we have had on Air France. The service and food was pretty good! The front section of the business class is forward and has a dividing bulkhead to the other business section, then premium and finally coach.

I have to agree with Airbus having now flown all of their planes they are much more comfortable than Boeing's. I walked back during flight and sat for a while in premium and standard coach seats not too bad. I am tall 6.2 so a bit sensitive to narrow confining seats. AF premium seating is not too bad. And you can reserve your food online in advance.

Back to the flight, the plane is a quiet as a private jet with extra sound proofing, smooth, the TV's screens are huge and touch activated.

Anyone that is a long haul international junkie has to fly this baby while I have yet to fly the 787 This is my "go to" international fly. Well worth the points.
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Old Dec 13, 2013, 10:28 pm
  #268  
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DL starting SEA-JNU... IMO it is more retaliatory here than for its own network.
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Old Dec 13, 2013, 10:45 pm
  #269  
 
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Originally Posted by golfingboy
DL starting SEA-JNU... IMO it is more retaliatory here than for its own network.
And boom goes the dynamite. On a 738, no less.

When they announced SEA-FAI, I had a feeling Juneau might be next, but I would have guessed it would be on a CR9, not 738. I assume it's seasonal, but no matter what congrats to the Juneauites who have been clamoring for additional service.
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Old Dec 13, 2013, 11:03 pm
  #270  
 
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Wow, I love the name of this thread. Almost ignores the fact that competition is critical for economic success in this country. How dare DL!
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