bodory

Hi Johan,

IMO you cannot compare the 4 FB status with the 2 non-FB ones because one cannot qualify per se for these 2.

I nevertheless agree that the 4 are well enough, specially if you add FB Petroleum which also provides some benefits.

San Gottardo

What would make sense:

1) Increase qualification for Platinum to something much higher (say 180k miles, inspired by 3x Gold level as LH and EK do it for their top levels)
2) Convert current LTPE members to LT Gold members. As long as Gold doesn't get devalued further they wouldn't lose out on many benefits, so it's more a loss of prestige than of actual value. Those that fly enough would still get Platinum, and those that in any case don't fly a lot anymore can live with "only" Gold for the flights that they're doing
3) Look at LH, BA, EK and some of the US programs for inspiration for benefits. Here are some that I for instance value with other airlines, currently not offered by FB: lounge access for all family members, guaranteed award seat as long as revenue seats are available, use of First Class lounge, blocking of neighbouring seat on non-full flights, discounted awards for accompanying travelers, Gold card for spouse/partner, call centre that can deal with both revenue and award tickets, true special treatment in case of IRROPS, generosity in customer care (e.g. reimbursement of expenses in case of lost luggage), upgrade vouchers, guaranteed preference for op-ups, guaranteed revenue seat in J/C 24 hours before departure and in Y 48 hours before departure

Surely some members would be unhappy, especially those that make 91k-179k status miles (they'd only be Gold), but it would be a wise corporate decision.

I am myself LTPE but I think that if those changes happened I wouldn't deserve the full enchilada of benefits, Gold would be fine.

Oh, and please, don't can some of the benefits that exist at FB which do not exist with other programs: possibility to earn lifelong status, possibility to give lifelong Platinum card to partner/spouse through AMEX - is there anything else?

RigpigMalta

PS: FB Petroleum card is a joke, only if you have status (Gold or Plat) is it worth anything and then you don't need the damn thing anyway! Ask anybody who works in the Petroleum industry the value of FB Petroleum card and stand way back for the response.

Sounds like a plan to me, hope someone from the headshed of AFKLM is trolling this thread

orbitmic

In short, you want FB to be M&M I'll admit I personally don't, it's not an FFP that has ever done it for me.

For the rest, I strongly believe that with FB, if platinum is improved, you can be certain that Gold WILL be devalued and will be less than what gold is today. I also really think it would be unfair to demote LTPE to "LTGE", especially as many of us have qualified with the types of levels that you describe and not as 'mere' 70k over the years, while gold can be achieved very easily by any 30 cheap segments a year. In summary: "donner c'est donner, reprendre c'est voler".

Also, while LH uses 3x higher level for HON, note that BA uses 2x higher level for GGL. In light of how hard it is to make the level miles on FB (e.g. many business class tickets earn only 125%, many Y tickets earn only 25%, etc), I would find that criterion more logical.

And I personally think that getting all the benefits you mention will never happen either. FB has always been marketed as a 'cheap' FFP so in my estimate, getting one or two meaningful additional benefits for Platinum would already be an achievement, and IMHO would not justify the major earthquake in earnings and lifetime qualification suggested.

orbitmic

If they do, I can predict very precisely what they will make of it for you - FB will:

- put an end to Platinum qualification by segments as I suggested earlier
- move up the Platinum qualification threshold to 180k/year as San Gottardo suggested
- transform all Platinum for life into Gold for life as he suggested as well
- decrease the benefits of Gold
- not add any benefit to Platinum but
- write to all >180k/yr Platinum members saying that they are really excited to present them a new more exclusive and desirable Platinum experience than ever...

Do you still want them to read this?

San Gottardo

No thanks. Absolutely not., especially not the way MM is going these days. But the status benefits of SEN/HON are attractive. And so are the ones of EK Platinum and BA GGL, which were the other "sources of inspiration".

As does EK for Platinum. But fine, let's make it 2x Gold or 2.5x Gold. I just find that the higher the thresholds the more valuable the benefits can be. HON/EK Platinum offer more than GGL, don't they (I seriously don't know)?

But you're probably right, instead of doing what is right for customers and thus ultimately as well for the company they'd probably just butcher existing benefits, increase thresholds and spend the money instead on marketing and communication spin.

orbitmic

I'll admit my complete ignorance on EK Platinum! Would be interested in knowing though! HON definitely offers more than GGL but I wouldn't necessarily assume it is to do with the qualification multiplyer (or in the case that interests us today, I would be anything that even if a new FB super status required 5 x gold, it would still be sub-standard! ). Also I was imprecise re-GGL, it actually requires 2 x Gold two years in a row (if you want to qualify in one year it is over 3 x Gold). Anyway, for the sake of clarity, GGL offers:

- Complementary gifting of 1 Gold and 2 silver cards to the people of your choice (silver is like "FB Gold +" including lounge access, priority services, 100% miles bonus, etc)
- In addition to the Gold upgrade for two Golds get at 2500 tier points, GGL keep getting further 2 x Gold upgrades for 1 at 3500, 4500, and every thousand additional TPs thereafter
- Two 'GGL rewards' allowing you to transform revenue seats into award seats twice a year. Again, further GGL rewards can be earned when you score more TPs
- Dedicated (and apparently very helpful) phone line
- Extra 'soft perks' (IRROPS cover, upgrades, etc)
- Further guests in the F lounge
- At 5000 points, a concorde room card which gives you access to the concorde room at LHR and JFK
- No charge for awards changes or cancellations

Note that with BA, you can get Gold for life and even GGL for life. It is not based on a number of years but on "lifetime tier points".

PS: I'm glad you don't want M&M as a model either - as you say, the recent evolution of the programme in particular is not good!

johan rebel

The original Flying Dutchman program used to offer exactly that. All I had to do was call the special RoyalWing number, which was always answered promptly by competent agents. Once I even got a seat on a flight that was showing J0/C0/Z0. Not sure how that was possible.

Johan

San Gottardo

Pretty simple: the flight wasn't actually sold out when you booked it and saw all classes zeroed out. Yield management has an expected number of people with top tier status that they'll have to accommodate on that flight. So they close all booking classes even before the flight is actually full and use the remaining seats to confirm all status pax that they have to take. When there are seats left over (less status members claiming their booking guarantee, people not turning up) they'll give them to non-status members who were held on a wait list. I am on "full" flights with LH and EK very often, never a problem.

Combine that with the benefit of never being offloaded in case of overbooking and you'll have a peace of mind not having to worry about whether you can take a certain flight or whether your agenda gets messed up. AFKL cannot offer that peace of mind.

Of course this only makes sense if this benefit is given to people on the same PNR, or at least family members. The geniuses at AF who care more about their elaborated rules than about what makes (common) sense for customers once told me that I could travel thanks to my Plat card but that my 3 year old was offloaded because of overbooking. Not sure what they expected the 3 year old to do. Go to the ticket counter, claim a compensation voucher and negotiate a seat on the next flight?

I fondly remember also the episode where the Icelandic volcano cancelled all flights between USA and large parts of Europe. I was stuck in NY. Thanks to my status I had a guaranteed seat on every Swiss, Lufthansa and Austrian Airlines flight that was going to leave the East Coast. And as long as flights for the day were cancelled they'd automatically put me on all flights for the following day, without me even having to call them. My colleague who was Club 2000 on AF was offered a seat 3 weeks later. Which is why for a frequent flyer things like redemption possibilities with promos, car rental partners or flower shops may be nice, but the peace of mind to be sure to get to where one wants later with that airline is what really counts. AFKL lags others in that respect. It could offer that peace of mind to its "best" customers, ie Platinums. Pity they miss that opportunity.

bodory

At least they are consistent when taking care of their Platinum customers because they did the exact same thing with me and my son.

San Gottardo

See, they are actually improving. Here is an improvised scale of customer service excellence:

1: Consistently and predictably acting in customer interest, in both design and ad-hoc situations
2: Product and service design in customer interest, but frontline customer service staff sticking to rules even if they are not in customer interest
3: Frontline customer service staff acting in customer interest to patch over deficiencies in product/service design
4: Frontline customer service staff consistently and predictably offering product/services that do not have customer interest in focus
5: Inconsistent customer service in combination with product/service design that does not have customer interest in focus

AF moved from 5 to 4. But level 3 is in sight.

RigpigMalta

For me yes, it works. I wll hit EK Plat in 2 hitches. I am already carrying 30k milesover next year with AF to maintain Plat. I also intend to hit BA with a couple of flights at some point this year. It works for me but maybe I am being a tad selfish. I want a clear differential between Plat & Gold which at the moment there is not. I am aware that my choosing my own routing or metal is not the norm but that is my position.

San Gottardo

Personally it would work for me too, but what orbitmic is saying is that you won't get anymore benefits as Plat, just higher threshold and differentiation vs. Gold by devaluating Gold.

Reminds me a bit of QR. When they introduced the Platinum level it turned out that Plat was in fact more or less what used to be Gold. Oneworld Sapphire was given to Plat, and people in the previously highest tier - Gold - only got the tier below (Emerald? I never recall those non-intuitive OW tier labels)

brunos

Your wife must be unhappy. If you had offered her some color jewel, you would know that sapphire is less expensive than emerald.

strikerbird

What about comparing Air France/KLM Flying Blue with SAS EuroBonus? EuroBonus has newly been refreshed, and I am really impressed by it.

SB