ajs123

Indeed, does not look like a game changer! And the official press release lists such destinations as heavy traffic routes as Katmandu. Connection to OZ only via Ams and not through CDG. Air Berlin also very limited and essentially closing gaps in coverage in aeurope like Gdansk or Graz...

http://corporate.airfrance.com/en/press/press-releases/article/item/the-air-france-klm-group-etihad-airways-and-airberlin-announce-new-partnerships/

NEW CONNECTIONS THROUGH THE GLOBAL GATEWAYS OF PARIS-CDG, AMSTERDAM-SCHIPHOL AND ABU DHABI
Beyond their gateways, this code-share agreement offers five destinations each to Air France and KLM passengers on the Asian and Australian market and ten European destinations to Etihad passengers on Air France and KLM.
Air France passengers will be able to connect through Abu Dhabi for flights to Colombo (Sri Lanka), Dhaka (Bangladesh), Katmandu* (Nepal), Mahe (Seychelles), and Male (Maldives).
KLM passengers will be able to connect through Abu Dhabi for flights to Colombo (Sri Lanka), Islamabad (Pakistan), Lahore (Pakistan), Melbourne (Australia), and Sydney (Australia).
Etihad Airways passengers will be able to connect through Paris-CDG airport for flights to
Bordeaux, Copenhagen, Madrid, Nice and Toulouse under an Air France operated flight, and through Amsterdam-Schiphol to Billund, Cardiff, Newcastle, Oslo, and Stavanger under a KLM operated flight.
* subject to governmental approval
NEW OPPORTUNITIES IN EUROPE FOR AIRBERLIN, AIR FRANCE AND KLM CUSTOMERS
Air France and airberlin announce a mutual codeshare agreement, allowing customers of either carrier to fly on all the routes operated by the other between France and Germany. Passengers will also be able to connect to some selected destinations via Paris for airberlin, and via Berlin or Düsseldorf for
Air France.
Air France passengers will be able to connect through Berlin-Tegel airport to Krakow (Poland), Gdansk (Poland), Graz (Austria) and from Düsseldorf to Dresden (Germany) on services
operated by airberlin.
airberlin passengers will be able to transfer through Paris-CDG and Paris-Orly to Bordeaux, Lyon, Marseilles, Montpellier, Nantes, Nice, and Toulouse on services operated by Air France.

Additionally, KLM and airberlin will cooperate on routes between the Netherlands and Germany:

KLM will codeshare with airberlin on three destinations beyond Berlin: Krakow (Poland), Gdansk (Poland) and Kaliningrad (Russia).
airberlin will codeshare on Berlin-Amsterdam routes as well as on Edinburgh (UK), Glasgow (UK) and Manchester (UK) beyond Amsterdam.

orbitmic

More details on the Air France corporate website: http://corporate.airfrance.com/fr/pr...artenariats-1/

It is even a bit weirder than I thought. The code-share destinations are not the same for AF and KL passengers. KLM which already has a code-share to Oz with MH (will it be discontinued??) now also have a codeshare to MEL and SYD through EY. By contrast, there is still no AF routing to Australia although you can go to such places as Kathmandu and Dhaka instead The only place which codeshares with both AF and KL is Colombo (re-).

The Air Berlin codeshare is equally restricted to such places as Krakow and Gdansk plus some 'airline specials' again like Kaliningrad for KL and Graz for AF.

Anyway, I'm sure all of this has some improbable sense butit doesn't necessarily strike one immediately...

AJS123, sorry I just saw your post! I was on the phone as I was writing so it took me long to finish my post and you already made much the same comments as me! Great minds think alike I guess

KQ321

Full statement from Air France is at Group Air France-KLM, Etihad Airways and Air Berlin Announce New Partnership (in French). It gives details of the specific routes which will be code-shared. Interestingly, no mention of:

- Frequent flyer benefits: presumably the "all AF/KL-coded flights earn FB miles" rule will continue, but what about other reciprocal benefits (eg: lounge access, additional baggage, etc)?
- Alliance membership implications: of course, AFKL is in SkyTeam, AB recently joined OneWorld, and Etihad is unaligned. Does this deal move EY closer to ST? And if, so what about AB's membership in OW?

EDIT: I also only just saw ajs123 and orbitmic's posts, both of whom beat me in posting the AF link....

ajs123

No problem, orbitmic! I was using the mobile FT app and failed miserably at getting the formatting and url link right :-) I certainly concur about the great minds

some additional thoughts
- seems like all airlines are just testing the waters, with a more significant future prospect. This seems to be confirmed by EY's media center "the first phase of a much larger strategic partnership " http://www.etihadmediacentre.com/file.php?f_ID=3771

- perhaps immediate bigger code-sharing would raise some regulatory problems and therefore we see mostly exotic destinations at first? Or EY waits until KL and AF get their J offer up to snuff [someone watched Downton Abbey last night ]
- only EY flies to CDG and only KL to AUH. Will it have any consequences where the KL flat beds will be rolled out first?
- As for AB - if the BER airport gets ever finished, then I expect that the AB flagship lounge will be available for FBs!
- I actually need to fly to Gdansk so the code comes in handy

irishguy28

That's what struck me as being most odd about this - will KL now ditch MH after being such good partners for so long?

Also, I can't understand why AF apparently cannot (yet) codeshare on EY to Australia - particularly when Qantas have already basically given AF the two fingers.

No doubt this partnership will grow in future - Aer Lingus' recent codesharing with Etihad was confined to a handful of destinations (Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Kuala Lumpur, Melbourne, Muscat and Sydney) when it launched last month, so perhaps Eithad's MO is to start slowly and then ramp up.

ajs123

The EY press release gives more insights into the FFPs:
"The new strategic partners will work together on the proposed integration of frequent flyer programs which includes reciprocal ‘earn-and-burn’ privileges for 1.5 million Etihad Guest members and 21 million Air France-KLM Flying Blue frequent flyers across the combined networks."

I am not holding my breath until I see the redemption charts.

irishguy28

The EY press release contains more info.

"• 22.5 million air travellers set to benefit from frequent flyer integration and reciprocal lounge access


The new strategic partners will work together on the proposed integration of frequent flyer programs which includes reciprocal ‘earn-and-burn’ privileges for 1.5 million Etihad Guest members and 21 million Air France-KLM Flying Blue frequent flyers across the combined networks."

As regards alliance membership, I think you can take it as written that EY has no plans to join any alliance. And why would it, when it has just concluded its 40th codesharing agreement, and it can actively seek out partners, whether unaligned or in any of the three main alliances, without the constraints of alliance membership?

orbitmic

Yes I thought of that too and even wondered if this was what resulted in the weird Australia situation that irishguy28 and myself commented upon earlier.

Thanks for pointing out the 'hints' at future stages of co-operation. I hope something comes out of it, but if EY doesn't join Skyteam and the earning/burning of mileage is only for award miles, it might not be all that interesting to many. As for whether or not they join an alliance, I guess it may partly be due to how OW joining (if confirmed) works out for QR. That could change a few things if that airline seems to be getting a proper boost out of it

irishguy28

I really can't see EY committing to an alliance, at least not under the present leadership.

But who knows - QR's entrance to oneworld, having broken the taboo, may make it more amenable for the big network carriers to join an alliance in future.

The only thing is - Emirates is already too big to be easily bedded into an alliance. And Etihad, in their rush to catch up to their two bigger neighbourhood rivals, have gone on a "virtual alliance" strategy, taking equity in a number of airlines, and signing codeshares with numerous other airlines around the world.

Particularly looking at oneworld - which is undergoing huge realignments (Qantas withdrawing from alliance partner co-operation in favour of its Emirates deal; AA on the verge of signing a similar deal with Emirates, which would seriously jeopardise their transatlantic joint venture with BA and IB (given that AA's pax for the Middle East/Africa/parts of Asia would bypass Europe and instead travel via DXB), etc etc) it would appear that alliances will become looser and less rigid. Why bind yourself to a (relatively) limited group, when you instead can go and forge bilateral relationships with the airlines you want? oneworld is a strange group. Cathay don't really do business with any of their alliance partners. It looks like Malaysia will end up the same way, once they enter, now that they've also been spurned by Qantas in favour of the Emirates deal.

Etihad may be more amenable to an alliance, but I can't really see Emirates ever getting involved. They wouldn't gain much from it - and would be loathe to undergo the expense and alignment necessary. I'm not sure they'd fancy having to make seats available for redemption to all the alliance frequent flyer programmes, either.

(Actually - it was quite surprising how "small" Etihad's frequent flyer program is - only 1.5 million members, in comparison to 21 million in FB).

orbitmic

Fully agree with you on Emirates. It is simply not going to happen, at least not in the next 10 years (longer term in the airline industry is just impossible to predict) but as you point out EK and EY have very different strategies. EK have gone for 'own growth' in a sort of 'world domination' strategy. They were also the first to start. EY has gone further down the route of equity stakes and have long hinted they would like a proper foot in the European market so this is the sort of thing that could take them in the direction of a deal. Or not... all odds are out right now I guess.

Interesting analysis of OW too. BA-QF was certainly one of the oldest partnership within the alliance, and AA-BA one of its newest developments. If both crack then who knows if OW will still exist at all. Not to mention that BA can't be happy about the codesharing agreement between AB and AF-KL even though cosmetically it remains shy of a generalised European code-sharing strategy at this stage. BA have long needed a foot in Central Europe, and the demise of MA last year made this even more essential. Fast growing AB (including Niki) sounded like a possible good solution but if they end up losing that, they will further lose ground on the continental European market. BA does not have a comprehensive presence in Asia either and as has been seen, its former (joint) dominance on the kangaroo route has become far less significant. Ultimately, whether it can remain a global airline with a dominance centred on Transatlantic routes (which may be hindered if your suspicions about the JV with AA are proved correct) including South American through IB and a few niche ex-colonial routes such as South Africa, India, or Hong Kong is doubtful to me, and even that would require some level of strength and attractiveness in their European hinterland.

brunos

Indeed, a more limited codeshare agreement than expected after such a lengthy negotiation. AF does not even get access to OZ and Virgin Australia is not included in the deal. Very few codeshares.
The only "important" news is the discussion about FFPs.

MAZ199

From the Etihad media file:

I guess something is still cooking

brunos

Not much seems to be "cooking" from the press release. They consider earn-and-burn reciprocal FFP arrangement as it already exists for other AFKL partners. The second item: "Other potential areas of co-operation include joint procurement, as well as maintenance and repair collaboration, as both carriers identify cost savings and seek to benefit from economies of scale, as Etihad Airways is doing with its other strategic partners."
The bad news is that it will reduce price competition from EY on CDG/AMS and they used to be quite aggressive. Not obvious that French customers will benefit overall unless they are mostly AFKL clients.
And what is AF doing about OZ (I know it is a small market)? Flying pax with another stop in AMS, not attractive.

brunos

JV and extensive codesharing agreements come and go. BA was a precursor with its QF-BA JV. In the old days they also had quite an agreement with CX. These are now gone. But they have signed an extensive agreement with JL:
http://www.traveldailymedia.com/1387...nd-partnership
JL has also an extensive transpacific JV with AA, as well as a JV with QF sub Jetstar.

There is a lot of discussion on the benefits of branded alliances and JVs for customers. A majority view seems that alliances benefits pax and airlines, but that JVs mostly benefit airlines by reducing price competition. Each alliance has an extensive transatlantic JV, but if AA folds or gets acquired, then that will be another game. However, never heard that AA is considering quitting its JV with BA & IB if it remains independent. Not sure how a possible partnership between AA and EK would affect it. But there is little doubt that the ME airlines are changing the game altogether. This is an interesting time although all these tie ups will not benefit competition and fares (from customer viewpoint).

The issue you raise on comparing European airlines focus is a good one. Relatively speaking, IAG is (very) strong to the Americas, but weak to Asia. However, it seems that it is increasing its focus on Asia. For example, it is reopening a route to Seoul (through its acquisition of BMI). It will probably stop flying to OZ, but the economics have changed and it is hard to justify the rationale for flying the kangoo route except for an airline whose hub lies somewhere in the middle.

orbitmic

After Cityjet for AF, Renault for BA?

And I agree with your analysis above.