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Old Jul 25, 04, 6:03 pm   #1
 
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RIP Concorde F-BTSC

Hard to believe that today we're pushing nearly a half-decade, since that horrible day outside of Paris where French negligence and extreme misfortune combined to destroy one of the most beautiful jetliners to ever grace the azure skies.

RIP Sierra Charlie, and the 113 who died with you that day
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Old Jul 25, 04, 6:17 pm   #2
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConcordeBoy
...where French negligence ....
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Old Jul 25, 04, 6:23 pm   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConcordeBoy
French negligence


quite uncalled for.
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Old Jul 25, 04, 6:34 pm   #4
 
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How about directing some of that righteous anger at Continental Airlines, who cut corners by flying 100-year-old DC-10s that lose bit and pieces on take off?

Last edited by Droneklax; Jul 25, 04 at 6:39 pm.
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Old Jul 25, 04, 7:03 pm   #5
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOUY31
quite uncalled for.
Perhaps... though, a spade's a spade no matter what one refers to it as.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Droneklax
How about directing some of that righteous anger at Continental Airlines, who cut corners by flying 100-year-old DC-10s that lose bit and pieces on take off?
I could, but why bother?

THAT, was for all practical purposes, an unpreventable misfortune. The following.....
  • never addressing the 29 previous concorde fuel tank breeches caused by tire debris
  • allowing Sierra Charlie to operate revenue service knowing that the autoalignment spacer was missing
  • loading the aircraft with a ton more fuel than was required for taxi
  • loading the aircraft with 1900 additional pounds of luggage after the CoG had already been calculated and determined
  • Marty deciding to takeoff from runway 24r, after the tower advised him of a strong tailwind with more than ample time to reroute to another runway.
  • Jardinaud shutting down the #2 engine (a) without asking for permission nor informing the captain until asked and (b) well below the minimum recommended airspeed at which it is safe to do so, thus ensuring impact with terrain

....were NOT.
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Last edited by ConcordeBoy; Jul 25, 04 at 7:16 pm.
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Old Jul 25, 04, 7:23 pm   #6
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All these points (and others) are quite open for debate, including the fact that the default in Continental's maintenance work was an "unpreventable misfortune".

On the other hand, mixing in the same sentence and thread an honorable call to celebrate the memories of the victims (RIP Concorde F-BTSC) and taking a generic shot at French people is unpleasant.

As for the responsibilities of the individual crewmembers who died on that day, it is the task of the courts to determine them, in a process which is far from over. On this day, I will also remember the people you have chosen to name and mourn their passing.

Last edited by JOUY31; Jul 25, 04 at 7:30 pm.
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Old Jul 25, 04, 7:54 pm   #7
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOUY31
All these points (and others) are quite open for debate
Sorry bub, but your above claim is absolutely bogus.

The BEA's final draft cites each and every one of the above incidents as I've listed them, the FAA has additonal...

...so unless you know something the two of them dont, I'd say the "open for debate" status has long since ended.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JOUY31
including the fact that the default in Continental's maintenance work was an "unpreventable misfortune".
Even in some of the articles released as recently as this weak, metal fatigue on an aircraft whose engines were not yet due for overhaul, was sited as the reason for the pylon detachment. About the only way to prevent such an occurence would be to overhaul every engine every flight. Count the number of airlines that you think operate with such a procedure... dont worry, I'll wait.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JOUY31
On the other hand, mixing in the same sentence and thread an honorable call to celebrate the memories of the victims (RIP Concorde F-BTSC) and taking a generic shot at French people is unpleasant.
....yet also wholy justifiable


Quote:
Originally Posted by JOUY31
As for the responsibilities of the individual crewmembers who died on that day, it is the task of the courts to determine them,
...ya mean as has already been done?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JOUY31
in a process which is far from over.
Not quite sure from whence you derive your information, but it's about 2years behind reality. Might I suggest ensuring information with which you choose to argue a point, is current? ;p
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Old Jul 25, 04, 9:06 pm   #8
 
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What report are you quoting?

The BEA report reads:

Quote:
The loss of the wear strip from the thrust reverser door on the Continental Airlines DC-10 originated from lack of rigorous maintenance. In fact, over a period of a little more than a month, the part had been replaced during a C-check, had become detached and twisted and had again been replaced, this time by apart which was not in acccordance with the manufacturer's specifications, this one being the one which fell off on 25 July 2000. Of course, this is not a critical part from the airworthiness perspective, but true safety implies strict respect for precedures, without any personal interpretation.

Facts established concerning the metallic strip and the aircraft reveal inadequate adherence to maintenance procedures by the various workshops that carried out work on the reverser cowl. Thus the engine cowl suppport was drilled with 37 holes whereas the installation of the strip requires only 12; equally, a titanium piece was used in Houston along with a mastic which is not normally used for this operation; finally the lower right wear strip was too long compared to the specification, which helps the explain the successive tearing off of the strip located opposite.
There there you go, it is interesting that you failed to quote that part of the report.

I find it telling that you desribed the above as an 'unpreventable misfortune", which it clearly was not. I also find it interesting that the report concludes:
Quote:
The spacer on the left main bogie had not been re-installed during replacement of the bogie on 17 and 18 July. This omission did not contribute to the accident
Yet you choose again not to quote this part.

While I am unfamiliar with your posts on FT, I find this bit of "French baiting" annoying, andd if I find other instances of gratuitous anti-French positions, I'll be sure to point them out. If you want to fault AF for faulty procedures, then fault AF, not 'French neglicence". Using your biased rationale, one ought to point the finger at "American maintenance procedures" for the disaster.

As far as your potshot at the crew is concerned, the report reads:

Quote:
The shutdown of engine 2 before reaching 400 feet resulted from the Captain and FE 's analysis of the situation. Indeed, less than 3 seconds after the failure of engine 2 was announced by the FE and the controller had informed the crew of the presence of flames at the reqar of theaaircraft, the engine's fire alarm and the associated gong sounded. The exceptional enviroment above quite naturally led the FE to ask to shut down the engine. This was immediately confirmed by the Captian's calling for the engine fire procedure. The engine had in fact pratically been at idle power for several seconds and the fire alarm was ounding....
The crew had no way of grasping the overall reality of the situtation. THey reacted instinctively when they perceived an extremeley serious but unknown situation, which they were evaluating by way of their sensory percetpions. Each time the situation allowed, they applied the established procedure in a professional way

This kind of baiting has no place on FT. I call it like like I see it.

Last edited by Droneklax; Jul 25, 04 at 9:25 pm.
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Old Jul 25, 04, 9:20 pm   #9
 
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While I am at it, your point on the so-called "29 events" is not well taken either.

You imply that nothing had been done about such tyre deflation/destruction events.

In fact, there had been, as of July 25 2000, 22 such events, not 29. But the report clearly distinguishes between three distinct time periods:

1976-1981: 13 events (rate per cycle 5.4 1E-4)
(modification as described in 1.16.4.2.1 of the report are carried out in 1982)
1982-1994: 8 events (rate 1.9 1E-4)
(BA aircraft equipped with modified deflectors and braking system modified in 1994)
1995-200: 1 event
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Old Jul 25, 04, 9:45 pm   #10
 
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I have no knowledge of Concorde or this particular incident whatsoever. Although I find the discussion interesting, I do find it objectionable (and I believe someone else has pointed this out earlier) that this one thread (or at least the post that started it) combines a) an attack on the French (however jusitifiable that may or may not be) and b) a commemoration of those who lost their lives.

I think this is a clear case of a very sensitive (and for some people undoubtedly very emotional) topic where greater caution should have been applied. Perphaps the original poster could have started two separate threads. An editing of the message seems appropriate.
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Old Jul 25, 04, 9:52 pm   #11
 
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As promised, and to finish this off as far as I am concerned, a perfunctory search of your posts on FT is very enlightening.

First picture of 773ER in AF colors

This one, in particular, claiming that the new AF 777 was "clean", "because it had not been to France yet", makes your original agenda quite obvious.

Jeebus

Last edited by Droneklax; Jul 25, 04 at 9:55 pm.
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Old Jul 26, 04, 12:27 am   #12
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This will be my last post on this distasteful combination of mourning & generic anti-French criticism.

The judicial process is far from over. There have been no indictments as yet, so we are far from any type of ruling by any court, either at the lower court level, appeals, or "cassation". So there is definitely room open for debate on the issues you raise, others anyone may raise and their link to the tragedy.

I take note that taking a generic shot at the French people is "also wholy justifiable".

Last edited by JOUY31; Jul 26, 04 at 3:40 am. Reason: spelling
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Old Jul 26, 04, 10:11 am   #13
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Jeez louise, I go away for one bloody weekend and this is what I come back to.

ConcordeBoy, cheap shots at the French people due to this accident will not be tolerated. If you wish to make racist comments, please make them elsewhere.

I'm going to keep this one open, if it can remain civil. Otherwise, it's locked.

Derek
AF Moderator.
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Old Jul 26, 04, 6:13 pm   #14
 
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Several things I am aware of:

1. This was a horrible accident and the loss of lives should be mourned and respected especially for the crew, pax and those on the ground.

2. It is easy to point blame out to different parties, however you must understand that the nature of this a/c was like none other that ever existed before. If it had an accident, more likely than not, it would be catostrophic. That is why the maintainance is so extensive and expensive. When any a/c goes down, the authorities try to figure out what went wrong and fix it. Look at the Space Shuttle. They did that after the AF SST accident. When you look at what happened, it could have occured at LHR, JFK or IAD as well. When the wife and I flew back from LHR in 1996 on the Concorde, I noticed that after we left the gate, a/c were taking off until we got near the runway. When we got near the runway on the outside taxiway, all a/c stopped and we proceeded to take off. There could have been the same debris on that runway that day.

3. It was and still is an accident. Blame, finger pointing or anything else will never bring back any of the dead. I would never believe any civil government would purposely allow anything to happen to jeopardize the safety of any passengers on any aircraft.

4. My good friends lives in Colmar, France. In 2000, while visiting them after checking out the Tour de France, my friend took me to the cemetery just outside the city to show me his grandfathers grave. It was about 6 weeks later when I saw the same cemetery on CNN as the pilot was laid to rest there. All of them were also upset at losing one of their finest in that horrible accident. They too were quick to try and place blame; however they realize that it was a terrible accident.

5. I think everone who ever rode on one of those beautiful aircraft shed a tear or two on that day for those poor people who lost their lives on that tragic day. I'm sure the pain remains for all of the surviving family and friends.

6. I agree with the moderator.

7. read all about it here. I think you will find this is the most complete description/analysis of the accident. http://www.bea-fr.org/anglaise/actua...oncorde-en.htm
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