lloydah

It must have been. He dropped us in the queue and went round to meet us at the other side. It was the low point of the whole experience. Took about 25 minutes to get through.

lloydah

We did it simply to find out what the FCT was like on our first trip on LH. Our driver told us we would enjoy it and we did, ducks and all. The walk was OK, as I said it was good weather. But there was no signage that we could see inside the terminal until we were almost outside.
I read somewhere here that it was LH's way of discouraging connecting pax using the FCT for whatever reason.

And Actually I find that the drive, whether in FRA or CDG is a good way of viewing aircraft. It may only be a five minute drive but it beats queuing on an airbridge any day.

San Gottardo

Hmm, sounds like you've taken offense at what I wrote and chosen to twist things I didn't write. Not sure why.

You said yourself that the reason you don't use the FCL is because they only have limited car service. So car service matters to you, which is absolutely fine. And it seems to matter more than minimising your walking distance, as otherwise you would just use the FCLs instead of walking to the FCT. So what is wrong in saying that for some people the car service is more important, and what is wrong in saying that the car rides don't take more than five minutes and speed does not exceed 50 km/h? Or are these facts wrong? There is nothing wrong with feeling that a car ride is more important than minimising walking distances, so I don't judge. I happen to not share that priorisation and personally think that the car thing is over-rated when it comes at the expense of spending more time to get to the car in the first place. Of course if Frankfurt/Lufthansa had an Air France-type system where they'd drive people to/from every plane, I'd definitely use it, even if I am not impressed by the luxury limousine thing (they could do that in a Smart if it were for me). But since the choice in Frankfurt is between (1) walking to the gate myself and using the FCL and (2) walking even more only to be driven to the plane from the FCT I think that (1) is preferable. And it's not as if you would have to take a bus when using the FCLs instead of the FCT. They do still drive you to open stands.

On Frankfurt layout, I did write that indeed it is not intuitive. But portraying it in a way as if it was a complete labyrinth where people can only get lost when it fact it is very easy to navigate by just following the signs seems a bit overblown. At *any* point in the concourses are there signs directing travelers to gates and concourses, and with that the direction to Lufthansa lounges are clearly signposted, including their full names ("Lufthansa Business Lounge", "Lufthansa Senator Lounge", "Lufthansa First Class Lounge"). I wish it was that clear at every airport (e.g. London LHR T3 has "Lounges A, B, C" and so on). So, is Frankfurt airport "logically" laid out? No, it is absolutely not clear why the Z gates sit atop the A gates when the B gates are somewhere else, and why the A/Z gates stretch over two concourses, or why a few B gates are before immigration but the vast majority is after immigration. But as a passenger who is less interested in discovering the rational pattern behind the bizarre naming logic but only looking for a couple of things (departure gate, lounges, maybe duty free) there is no reason to get lost, just follow the signs. As in many airports, there may be a few additional shortcuts (Flyertalk is the usual place where we learn about them), but even without them no reason to get lost.

And yes, it is a fact that people from different parts of the world have different orientation systems. I am not saying that some people have a better sense of orientation than others. I am saying that they have a different "referencing system". Westerners have trouble with the "address" system in Japan. Europeans in the US often get lost because they assume they can walk to any address once they have found the street name, without realising that streets can be very very long and in many cities have "North/South" divides (Chicago) or "East/West" divides (NYC), quarters of the compass (Washington, DC) or are just extremely long (Boulevards in Los Angeles). How many times have I heard Europeans in NYC saying they "walk down Broadway" because for them it's just a street without realising the length of it, where it would never come to their senses to say they "walk all the way from Notting Hill Gate to Canary Wharf". Americans often refer to "blocks" which means the built-up area surrounded by four different streets that are equidistant, whereas even in English-speaking countries in Europe the notion of "block" is meaningless in orientation/navigation. And I have often heard from American visitors in Europe how complicated everything is and asking for directions in terms of "East" or "West". Except that - for instance - in Paris no one would explain the way from Concorde to George V by saying "go straight West for 10 blocks" even if that was technically correct. In cities where streets are numbered it is easy to know whether you are going in the right direction as long as you can count, in Europe that doesn't work. So, yes, there is a difference, Americans' "internal navigation system" or orientation system is more grid-like and referenced to directions on a compass. Not the case for Europeans, who are more used to follow signs because they have no other choice as the street layout and naming (=absence of numbering) does not provide any clue, and streets do not follow an E/W/N/S grid.

So did I say that you had a bad sense of orientation? No. I didn't say anything about *you* in the first place. I made an observation about who most often remarks that FRA is complex (which is different from who often remarks that distances on foot are really long, that comes from everybody). And I did not say that you or whoever had bad sense of orientation but I did say that Frankfurt is indeed not intuitively laid out but that it doesn't matter because there are signs everyone can follow (the option of walking out to the FCT is not available to more than 50 million people using Frankfurt every year, so they have to make do with the signs).

In any case, pity that you took offense. You have contributed an absolutely fantastic trip report and shared your enthusiasm for the AF Premiere product in the air and on the ground. All of us here share that enthusiasm, and as you have read my previous post where I compared several European and ME3 airlines I gave a lot of evidence and benchmarks why that is the case.

All good now?

orbitmic

Very small point but I disagree with that point. Yes, FRA has signs everywhere but I actually find them confusing and often unhelpful. I know the airport reasonably well and typically know my way without needing to look things up, but when I hesitate and need to use the signs, I do not feel that they help. This is in part because some of the halls where you might actually need them (as opposed to the "corridors" are actually quite broad and open and directions can then be unclear (a bit the same issue as Doha).

And while I fully agree with your priorities re-FCT myself, I can only reiterate that for a bog standard *A G who chooses to stick to self walk to FCL, the F ground experience on LH actually becomes not very different from the BA one at LHR and way below the AF F connecting experience. I would add that interestingly, I find AF's choice more logical than LH's because to me, originating passengers in premium classes are largely captive anyway (ie frankly, if you can buy premium and can have nonstop, it is unusual that anything will make you choose a connecting alternative instead) whilst connecting pax are typically more of a competitive pool and thus need to be "earned" (if you fly from FRA to MIA or LHR to BOS in F, it is extremely unlikely that you will choose anything else than nonstop regardless of service. By contrast, if you are flying from VCE or BCN instead, there is frankly very little in going via CDG, FRA, ZRH, or LHR in terms of convenience in principle so price and service and FFP will likely be far more influential).

San Gottardo

Hmm. Interesting. Will look at this next time.

100% agree about AF being superior. 100% disagree about BA being the same. The FCL itself is better than the CCR. And if your plane leaves from an open stand you do not have to take a bus. In London I have had situations where I schlepped myself all the way down to the train, got off at the B gates, walked all the way to the end of the B concourse, to stand in line to go down to the tarmac, where pax (all classes mixed up) where stuffed in an overheated bus, waited for 15 minutes on the bus, drove 50 meters and schlepped my stuff up the stairs again. Never would you have such an experience in Frankfurt. But as both you and I have written before: AF does it better, they just drive you from/to any plane ^

Yes and no. Yes, you're right, there is less choice from the hubs and for originating pax. But: Lufthansa also has to offer something to its numerous corporate contracts in Frankfurt and Munich. Which probably also explains why they use the FCT/FCL facilities and services for HONs. To get that status one needs to fly a lot of F and J flights, so the competition is not only with other airlines but also with lower fares from the same airline.

San Gottardo

Yep, great stuff. But you have *exactly* the same things in the FCLs.

It's not to *discourage* people to use the FCT, the FCT is designed to be the FCL for those that originate their trip in Frankfurt. For transfer pax there are FCLs. Hence it wouldn't make sense to signpost the FCT inside the terminal. It's a bit as if they put up a screen in the transfer area showing the departure times of the local buses.

For aviation aficionados, absolutely ^^ But there again, if you are connecting to a European destination, your chances are high that you are driven by limousine from FCL A. Lufthansa's insufficient capacities in terms of jetty positions at FRA make them park a large portion of their shorthaul flights at open stands.

SFO777

Talk about a thread going off the rails. I'm almost sorry I posted this report.

I read exactly what you wrote.

orbitmic

As you know, I'm not one to defend the BA F ground experience, but to be honest, this would be truly exceptional. I think that since BA moved some long haul flights to T3, I have had zero bus boarding for my BA long haul flights. To my knowledge, there are only two designated bus gates at LHR T5, both in the A section - A4 (used for domestics almost exclusively) and gate A10 (used for anything in theory but more frequently for short haul flights). AFAIK, 5B and 5C do not have purpose-built/intentional bus gates so I imagine that if you got one therefrom that concourse it can only have been a problem such as a change of aircraft or a jetbridge issue, which certainly would be unpleasant but is definitely not the norm.

I fully agree that it is annoying that priority boarding at A10 is pathetic, but to be honest, I see it more as an exception. As for having to make your way to the B and C gates when travelling in F, I have already said what I think of it and that it is, in my view, unacceptable, but frankly, I do not see it as any more of a pain/walk than transiting from the A or Z to the C or B gates at FRA. In fact, my normal routine at LHR for any B gate and at least half of my C gates departures is to not use the train but the corridor and it does not really take me any longer to walk than the tunnel between the A and B gates at FRA (I hate both equally, but still better than trains).

lloydah

Don't be. The photos were exceptional. Much appreciated.^

orbitmic

Indeed! ^ Plus OT is in FT's DNA; you know where a discussion will start, never where it will finish, and that's a big part of the charm!!

wuzziduzziman

Great point. ^
FT even helps to learn about cultural differences across countries & nations, can be really fun sometimes.

tpatta

Thanks so much tpatta. What a small world! I hope that we behaved ourselves. [/QUOTE]

You must have. My wife commented that it was so quiet up front there must not be anyone in First. Small world indeed. ^

Crampedin13A

While my LH F days are finished with the withdrawal of F from Canadian gateways it was SFO777's Lufty F TRs that got me to try it out and then got hooked on it. That being said after the first few trips I preferred to just spend a couple hours longer in bed in the hotel than visit the FCT and left it as late as possible to actually get to the gate. Since LH flights to Canada almost always leave from the FRA C gates I can confirm that yes the ground experience is probably worse in that case than BA's. The AF F experience looks amazing though and some of the ex-US sales fares are cheaper than J from Canada to my usual European destination cities. But with no AF F from Canada I'll just have to make do with my Avios upgrades to BA F when I can't get the UD on the 744. The gate A10 T5 LHR BA F experience is still very much alive. I last had the misfortune of it in May

San Gottardo

Well, if you want to think that, then that is your choice. Pity though.

I already said what I thought about that (not sure how you read it). To quote my previous posts:

San Gottardo

They offer First Class on flights to MUC (Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver).

Lufthansa flights to Canada leave from the B gates in 99% of cases, usually from B20-B28 (right opposite the First Class B lounge). C gates is an exception. For departures from the C gates, there is limousine transfer from the FCL B. You do not have to walk the long way to the C gates. Of course, if your trip starts in Frankfurt then you have the FCT anyway with limousine transfer also to the B gates.

Still inferior to Air France, but better than LHR.

The real trouble with the C gates is when you arrive there, which can in theory happen from anywhere. In that case, Lufthansa doesn't give a toss about its First Class pax. You can walk all the loooong way to the B and A gates or the Skytrain that takes you to those gates. That is really
And equal to arriving in LHR.

Again, I don't give a toss about driving in the back of a Mercedes (I can take a taxi if I want that). But at least a Golf Cart and a PA that gets you from the C gates to the best FCL in no time and without the security shenanigans would be the least.

The big handicap that LH has in Frankfurt is that they are limited by two external partners: FRAPort doesn't let them have as many cars as they would like drive around on the tarmac. And the German border police doesn't have in-lounge passport control the way they have it in the FCT or in the FCLs in Munich. So, not Lufthansa's fault, but still