orbitmic

They would be wasting their time. EC261 only applies to the operating airline (which does not seem to have done anything wrong here) and on flights from the EU or to the EU on an EU carrier neither of which is the case here.

As NickB points out, this is not a case of downgrade but a case of - effectively - falsely representing the service sold. I would have thought that the OP would have had a fairly strong case following such a complaint but whether this could ever be worth it considering the very minimal money that would probably be repaid is questionable. I almost wonder if it might make more sense to just complain to a consumers' association or something like the "ask Alex" section of Business traveller hoping that fear of bad publicity gets some reaction.

ranskis

Same issue on RUN MRU operated by MK with AF flight number. MK operates this flight with a Y only class of service. When checking in online, I got pure Y seats. After complaining a lot at the airport and since it was an A340, I managed to get a C seat assigned with Y service and Y boarding pass. No lounge access provided either.

I have not complained yet but I will, at least to get the IZ tax refunded: got charged 45 EUR for leaving France (RUN) in C to a non EU country (MRU) but since I got a Y boarding pass and Y service, I need to get back the tax difference of around 40 EUR (x2 passengers). So AF/MK paid actually 4 EUR of tax to the state but charged me 45 per pax.

If MK only has one class of service, they could just remove any availability in JCDIZO classes, it is not that difficult. All their business class fares allow to book in economy flights for which business is not operated or not available.

NickB

They would also need to indicate which economy booking class the fare maps onto if this is not already written into the fare rules. So it could conceivably add a tiny wee bit of work but this is not rocket science.

kevinflyaway

Wouldn't that only be IF the segment was actually flown seperatly?! For instance if they took a flight from CPT to the EU, and the first leg was with Comair, wouldn't EU261 still apply?!

orbitmic

IMHO not for a downgrade which is really something flight-specific. It would be different if we were talking of a combined delay/cancellation.

wideman

I'd go after Expedia. They sold you the ticket, even though the ticket was presumably written on AF stock. If AF has misrepresented something (which it very much appears that they did, intentionally or not), let Expedia go after Air France.

In terms of value, I'd find the difference in price between Comair's business class and economy class fare JNB-CPT, of course using the same fare conditions -- ideally, the fare conditions/restrictions of the ticket that you purchased.

I'd get this info, and ask Expedia to pay you the difference. If they won't, and if Canada has the equivalent of the US's small claims court system, I'd very much consider going that route.

kevinflyaway

If your ticket actually says business for the short segment, can you not consider it as a downgrade. Its to easy to say business, but then ow sorrythey only have Y and offer nothing. And legallyI dont think it's that clear cut, IF in fact business was stated on the ticket for that segment

MSPeconomist

This thread reminds me of a situation I had with an Air Europa flight being sold as business class when there was no business class (or even any distinct premium seats) on the aircraft. I forget the details now of how it was ticketed (AF stock? codeshare?), but for the BCN-MRS flight, they told me that business class just meant that I got lounge access. Since I would have had lounge access anyway and wasn't planning to spend much time in the lounge, I certainly wouldn't have booked that segment (of a multicity trip) as business class, although I did pick Air Europe because it was the only nonstop available.

orbitmic

First to clarify, nobody is suggesting that what happened to the OP is right, and certainly not myself. The question is 1) what is the actual legal issue (you think downgrade, I think misselling), and 2) how best to have the op's rights upheld accordingly. Re-downgrade, sure, you could consider it (I personally don't think it would be the right angle to pursue) but that is entirely irrelevant for EC261 purposes. Again, EC261 only gives you recourse against the operating airline. The operating airline is not "touchable" from the point of view of EC261 in this itinerary, and that is basically the end of the story.

I think that the recourse of the OP would likely be against Expedia, which would likely file back against AF. I suspect Comair is entirely innocent in that story but even if they are not, EC261 is simply not a way to hold them accountable.

NickB

No. For Reg 261/2004 to apply, the flight segment on which the incident occurs must be within the scope of the Reg. Here, the flight in question is a Kulula flight between CPT and JNB, which is clearly out of the scope of Reg 261/2004. If there was a downgrade, delay, cancellation or IDB on the JNB-CDG segment on AF, then the Reg would apply.

NickB

Even if, for the sake of argument, it was a downgrade, that will not get you much further. It would be a breach of contract. The OP would be entitled to the difference between what he paid for and what he received, which would be peanuts.

Antoine Nguyen

Thanks for the different insights and perspectives on this. Thank you flyertalk community

I feel what should be gained from this is that airlines should not be able to engage in this practice - book someone in Business if it's non-existent. This is an error that Air France should admit to and fix

Andy49

Agreed, and AF should not move people to a budget airline when they originally booked a proper AF business class without even telling them.

MtlChris

Forget about blaming expedia, and south-african low cost carriers, AF will happily lie about their very own flights, on their very own booking engine. Case in point :


We all know there's no such thing as business on french domestic flights, but does everybody who might purchase a flight online know that ? How is that not blatant false advertising ?

Concerto

Probably refers to the booking subclass. I had that quite a few times back in the 90s on carriers like Crossair (LX) and Crossair Europe (QE), where I was clearly booked in Business but the small cabin was exactly the same for everyone and the (excellent) catering was offered to everyone. In those days it was business class catering for all!