HOP-Air France launch today
Mar 25, 2015, 2:20 pm
#16
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Jcompronplurien....
I need to fly Paris-Bordeaux-Paris in April. Since I am now utterly confused about who is flying the route and where I need to book I basically opened both the AF and the HOP webpage and started a search. Well both come up with results. But the same flights are sold at different fares. Both sites offer it as an AF-coded flight. But I thought it would be a HOP flight with an AF plane and a HOP crew.
I didn't even go into the details of fare rules and mileage credits, it's just odd that an AF flight sells at different fares on two websites of the AF group. In case of a codeshare I could have understood (e.g. if I book CDG-GVA on the LX site with an LX flight number vs. on the AF site with an AF flight number I am not surprised to have different fares), but this is not a codeshare, or is it?
And, just out of curiosity, on which site do I have to book to get Elite+ benefits (SKYPRIORITY fast lane, priority boarding, lounge, extra luggage)? Or would I get that irrespective on which site I book
EDIT: just to figure out how the system works I tried a non-La Navette route, BOD-LYS. Same: flights offered on both sites, both with A5 codes, but with wildly different fares.
So does AF have its own inventory on A5 flights? And A5 have its own inventory on AF flights?
I need to fly Paris-Bordeaux-Paris in April. Since I am now utterly confused about who is flying the route and where I need to book I basically opened both the AF and the HOP webpage and started a search. Well both come up with results. But the same flights are sold at different fares. Both sites offer it as an AF-coded flight. But I thought it would be a HOP flight with an AF plane and a HOP crew.
I didn't even go into the details of fare rules and mileage credits, it's just odd that an AF flight sells at different fares on two websites of the AF group. In case of a codeshare I could have understood (e.g. if I book CDG-GVA on the LX site with an LX flight number vs. on the AF site with an AF flight number I am not surprised to have different fares), but this is not a codeshare, or is it?
And, just out of curiosity, on which site do I have to book to get Elite+ benefits (SKYPRIORITY fast lane, priority boarding, lounge, extra luggage)? Or would I get that irrespective on which site I book
EDIT: just to figure out how the system works I tried a non-La Navette route, BOD-LYS. Same: flights offered on both sites, both with A5 codes, but with wildly different fares.
So does AF have its own inventory on A5 flights? And A5 have its own inventory on AF flights?
Mar 26, 2015, 3:55 am
#17
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Love it!.... I just love it!... I'm almost wondering if they might actually be doing something grossly illegal here, I'm not even sure what but it just seems so wrong - two websites, same group, same country, same route, same flight, same codes but vastly different fares? Idiots.
Mar 26, 2015, 8:28 am
#18
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Love it!.... I just love it!... I'm almost wondering if they might actually be doing something grossly illegal here, I'm not even sure what but it just seems so wrong - two websites, same group, same country, same route, same flight, same codes but vastly different fares? Idiots.
Mar 26, 2015, 10:48 am
#20
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Mar 26, 2015, 2:10 pm
#21
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Mar 26, 2015, 4:30 pm
#22
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So, here is some data for two examples. I always went to the point where payment was asked.
Bordeaux-Paris ORY-Bordeaux, April 8th.
Fares are different, with HOP always EUR 6 cheaper on BOD-ORY but EUR 4 more expensive on ORY-BOD. So, different fares, but at least "consistent" in terms of always the same difference and flights that are more expensive on AF are also more expensive on HOP. When I looked yesterday the picture looked less "consistent"
Second example, Bordeaux-Lyon-Bordeaux, 8 April. As I wrote earlier, "wildly" different fares:
Trying to make sense of it is difficult...
Bordeaux-Paris ORY-Bordeaux, April 8th.
Fares are different, with HOP always EUR 6 cheaper on BOD-ORY but EUR 4 more expensive on ORY-BOD. So, different fares, but at least "consistent" in terms of always the same difference and flights that are more expensive on AF are also more expensive on HOP. When I looked yesterday the picture looked less "consistent"
Second example, Bordeaux-Lyon-Bordeaux, 8 April. As I wrote earlier, "wildly" different fares:
Trying to make sense of it is difficult...
- In the low fares for the outbound, Air France is less expensive than HOP. But the fare difference moves between 30 EUR and 60 EUR
- In the other direction, it is the opposite: HOP is less expensive. The fare difference moves between 55 EUR and 90 EUR
- However, for the flex fares on the outbound, the picture is inconsistent. Sometimes Air France is less expensive, sometimes HOP.
- For the Flex fare on the return flight, HOP is always less expensive, with a fare difference of a whopping 75%
- The fare difference between the low fares and Flex is sometimes low on HOP while on the same flight it is high on AF (e.g. the 08h50 LYS-BOD: 3% difference on HOP, 75% on Air France)
- We sometimes see different fares between two flights on AF, but the HOP fares for the same flights are identical (e.g. low fares on the 08h50 and 13h20 Bordeaux-Lyon)
Mar 26, 2015, 7:18 pm
#23
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So, here is some data for two examples. I always went to the point where payment was asked.
Bordeaux-Paris ORY-Bordeaux, April 8th.
Fares are different, with HOP always EUR 6 cheaper on BOD-ORY but EUR 4 more expensive on ORY-BOD. So, different fares, but at least "consistent" in terms of always the same difference and flights that are more expensive on AF are also more expensive on HOP. When I looked yesterday the picture looked less "consistent"
Bordeaux-Paris ORY-Bordeaux, April 8th.
Fares are different, with HOP always EUR 6 cheaper on BOD-ORY but EUR 4 more expensive on ORY-BOD. So, different fares, but at least "consistent" in terms of always the same difference and flights that are more expensive on AF are also more expensive on HOP. When I looked yesterday the picture looked less "consistent"
Let's cut A5 some slack.However, A5 has declined to publish its BOD-PAR fares on the GDS.
The first thing you will notice is that the cheapest fare pis issued only on AF. Not on A5, the wanna-be low cost, but on AF. The cheapest A5 fare is twice the price of the cheapest AF fare. Obviously.
The second thing you will notice is that wherever AF and A5 have the same fare cost ... it is actually on different booking codes!? In what other case does a wholly owned subsidiary use a different booking code map to its parent?
The next thing you will notice is that often the minimum stay requirement is only imposed on the "we can do low cost too!" A5 fare and not the identically priced "full service" AF fare. For instance, fare A5 RSAPFR (88 EUR) requires a Saturday night or three days (indicated by a "V") but fare AF VSAPFR (88 EUR) does not---I also double checked the fare rules specifically and yes, the table is correct according to the rules. Careful inspection of the published fares reveals many other discrepancies, almost as though two different revenue management teams are working on this with little communication with each other.
(To be fair, the table comes into much closer alignment if you turn on fare validating, i.e., only show fares that are actually valid for sale today for travel on those dates.)
Code:
Fare Information Search:
Departing BOD on 08/04/15 for LYS
Returning on 08/04/15
Flying A5 AF
Purchasing at PAR
Viewing in currency EUR
Show Fares for All Travel Dates
Fare Basis Airline Booking Trip Type Fare Cabin Effective Expiration Min/Max Advanced
Class Date Date Stay Purchase Req
VAR0FR9 AF V Round-Trip 48.00 (EUR) E -- / 6M 40
VRD0FR9 AF V Round-Trip 50.00 (EUR) E V / 6M
R1AR0FR9 AF R Round-Trip 74.00 (EUR) E 35
RRD0FR9 AF R Round-Trip 76.00 (EUR) E V / 6M
RSAPFR A5 R Round-Trip 88.00 (EUR) E V / 12M 40
VSAPFR AF V Round-Trip 88.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M 40
RSRFR A5 R Round-Trip 90.00 (EUR) E V / 12M
VSRFR AF V Round-Trip 90.00 (EUR) E V / 12M
N1AR0FR9 AF N Round-Trip 92.00 (EUR) E 30
J2SRFR9 A5 J Round-Trip 93.00 (EUR) E 02 / 02
NRD0FR9 AF N Round-Trip 94.00 (EUR) E V / 6M
ERD0FR9 AF E Round-Trip 112.00 (EUR) E V / 6M
N1SAPFR A5 N Round-Trip 114.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M 35
R1SAPFR AF R Round-Trip 114.00 (EUR) E 35
NSRFR A5 N Round-Trip 116.00 (EUR) E V / 12M
RSRFR AF R Round-Trip 116.00 (EUR) E V / 12M
E1SAPFR A5 E Round-Trip 132.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M 30
N1SAPFR AF N Round-Trip 132.00 (EUR) E 30
ESRFR A5 E Round-Trip 134.00 (EUR) E V / 12M
NSRFR AF N Round-Trip 134.00 (EUR) E V / 12M
VRD0FR9 AF V Round-Trip 140.00 (EUR) E V / 6M
TRD0FR9 AF T Round-Trip 144.00 (EUR) E V / 6M
LRD0FR9 A5 L Round-Trip 150.00 (EUR) E V / 6M
QRD0FR9 AF Q Round-Trip 150.00 (EUR) E V / 6M
ESRFR AF E Round-Trip 152.00 (EUR) E V / 12M
TSRFR A5 T Round-Trip 152.00 (EUR) E V / 12M
V1AR0FR9 AF V Round-Trip 158.00 (EUR) E 40
RRD0FR9 AF R Round-Trip 160.00 (EUR) E V / 6M
J1SRFR9 A5 J Round-Trip 163.00 (EUR) E 01 / 02
P2SRFR9 A5 P Round-Trip 172.00 (EUR) E 02 / 02
R1AR0FR9 AF R Round-Trip 180.00 (EUR) E 35
VSRFR AF V Round-Trip 180.00 (EUR) E V / 12M
QSRFR A5 Q Round-Trip 184.00 (EUR) E V / 12M
TSRFR AF T Round-Trip 184.00 (EUR) E V / 12M
HWKFR A5 H Round-Trip 190.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
HWKFR AF H Round-Trip 190.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
LSRFR A5 L Round-Trip 190.00 (EUR) E V / 12M
NRD0FR9 AF N Round-Trip 190.00 (EUR) E V / 6M
QSRFR AF Q Round-Trip 190.00 (EUR) E V / 12M
KRD0FR9 A5 K Round-Trip 191.00 (EUR) E V / 6M
KRD0FR9 AF K Round-Trip 191.00 (EUR) E V / 6M
V1SAPFR AF V Round-Trip 198.00 (EUR) E 40
RSRFR AF R Round-Trip 200.00 (EUR) E V / 12M
ERD0FR9 AF E Round-Trip 210.00 (EUR) E V / 6M
N1AR0FR9 AF N Round-Trip 212.00 (EUR) E 30
R1SAPFR AF R Round-Trip 220.00 (EUR) E 35
NSRFR AF N Round-Trip 230.00 (EUR) E V / 12M
TRD0FR9 AF T Round-Trip 230.00 (EUR) E V / 6M
KSRFR A5 K Round-Trip 231.00 (EUR) E V / 12M
KSRFR AF K Round-Trip 231.00 (EUR) E V / 12M
UWKFR A5 U Round-Trip 231.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
UWKFR AF U Round-Trip 231.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
QRD0FR9 AF Q Round-Trip 240.00 (EUR) E V / 6M
P1SRFR9 A5 P Round-Trip 242.00 (EUR) E 01 / 02
ESRFR AF E Round-Trip 250.00 (EUR) E V / 12M
N1SAPFR AF N Round-Trip 252.00 (EUR) E 30
TSRFR AF T Round-Trip 270.00 (EUR) E V / 12M
QSRFR AF Q Round-Trip 280.00 (EUR) E V / 12M
MWKFR A5 M Round-Trip 284.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
MWKFR AF M Round-Trip 284.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
HWKFR AF H Round-Trip 310.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
KRD0FR9 AF K Round-Trip 320.00 (EUR) E V / 6M
DWKFR A5 D Round-Trip 337.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
LWKFR AF L Round-Trip 337.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
KSRFR AF K Round-Trip 360.00 (EUR) E V / 12M
BWKFR A5 B Round-Trip 390.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
BWKFR AF B Round-Trip 390.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
UWKFR AF U Round-Trip 410.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
YWKFR A5 Y Round-Trip 428.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
YWKFR AF Y Round-Trip 428.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
AFFFR A5 A Round-Trip 446.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
AFFFR AF A Round-Trip 446.00 (EUR) PE -- / 12M
MWKFR AF M Round-Trip 510.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
WFFFR A5 W Round-Trip 557.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
WFFFR AF W Round-Trip 557.00 (EUR) PE -- / 12M
A1FFFR A5 A Round-Trip 580.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
A1FFFR AF A Round-Trip 580.00 (EUR) PE -- / 12M
BWKFR AF B Round-Trip 610.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
W1FFFR A5 W Round-Trip 726.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
W1FFFR AF W Round-Trip 726.00 (EUR) PE -- / 12M
YWKFR AF Y Round-Trip 740.00 (EUR) E -- / 12M
AFFFR AF A Round-Trip 750.00 (EUR) PE -- / 12M
WFFFR AF W Round-Trip 850.00 (EUR) PE -- / 12M
A1FFFR AF A Round-Trip 974.00 (EUR) PE -- / 12M
W1FFFR AF W Round-Trip 1104.00 (EUR) PE -- / 12M
Fine you've found the fare you wanted maybe it's slightly different conditions but it works. Let's see if you can buy it.
So for the same flight AF and A5 also don't synchronize the availability completely. In particular, A5 likes to pretend there is only one full Y seat available on every flight?
Oh also they both like to close fare buckets in the middle of the table rather than follow the usual protocol of closing the cheapest fare buckets first and moving upwards.
Code:
Flight Availability Search
Departing BOD on 08/04/15 0:00 for LYS
Returning on 08/04/15 0:00
Flying A5 AF
Direct/Non-Stop Only
Point of Sale: UK
Frequency
Flight Stops Depart Arrive Aircraft Reliability Available Classes
0 Connections
AF 5368 0 BOD LYS CRK M,T,W,Th,F J9 W9 S9 AC Y9 B1 LC MC UC KC HC QC TC EC NC RC VC XC
08/04/15 6:50 08/04/15 8:00 98% / 4m
0 Connections
A5 (DB) 4021 0 BOD LYS CRK M,T,W,Th,F W9 S9 AC Y1 B1 DC MC UC PC KC HC JC LC QC TC EC NC RC VC XC GC
08/04/15 6:50 08/04/15 8:00 NA / NA
0 Connections
AF 5456 0 BOD LYS CRK M,T,W,Th,F J9 W9 S9 A9 Y9 B9 L9 M9 UC K9 HC Q9 T9 E9 N9 R9 VC X9
08/04/15 8:50 08/04/15 10:00 94% / 19m
0 Connections
A5 (DB) 4121 0 BOD LYS CRK M,T,W,Th,F W9 S9 A9 Y1 B9 D9 M9 UC P9 K9 HC JC L9 Q9 T9 E9 N9 RC V9 X9 G9
08/04/15 8:50 08/04/15 10:00 NA / NA
0 Connections
AF 5372 0 BOD LYS CRK M,T,W,Th,F J9 W9 S9 A9 Y9 B9 L9 M9 UC K9 HC Q9 T9 E9 N9 RC VC X9
08/04/15 13:20 08/04/15 14:30 92% / 8m
0 Connections
A5 (DB) 4023 0 BOD LYS CRK M,T,W,Th,F W9 S9 A9 Y1 B9 D9 M9 UC P9 K9 HC JC L9 Q9 T9 E9 NC RC V9 X9 G9
08/04/15 13:20 08/04/15 14:30 NA / NA
0 Connections
AF 5494 0 BOD LYS E70 M,T,W,Th,F J9 W9 S9 A9 Y9 B9 L9 M9 U9 K9 HC Q9 T9 E9 N9 R9 VC X9
08/04/15 15:40 08/04/15 16:50 83% / 24m
0 Connections
A5 (YS) 4225 0 BOD LYS E70 M,T,W,Th,F W9 S9 A9 Y1 B9 D9 M9 U9 P9 K9 HC J9 L9 Q9 T9 E9 N9 RC V9 X9 G9
08/04/15 15:40 08/04/15 16:50 NA / NA
0 Connections
AF 5458 0 BOD LYS CRK Su,M,T,W,Th,F J9 W9 S9 A9 Y9 B9 L9 M9 UC K9 HC Q9 T9 E9 N9 RC VC X9
08/04/15 17:00 08/04/15 18:10 90% / 11m
0 Connections
A5 (DB) 4127 0 BOD LYS CRK Su,M,T,W,Th,F W9 S9 A9 Y1 B9 D9 M9 UC P9 K9 HC JC L9 Q9 T9 E9 NC RC V9 X9 G9
08/04/15 17:00 08/04/15 18:10 NA / NA
0 Connections
A5 (DB) 4027 0 BOD LYS CRK Su,M,T,W,Th,F W9 S9 A9 Y1 B6 DC MC UC PC K2 HC JC LC QC TC EC NC RC VC XC GC
08/04/15 18:15 08/04/15 19:25 NA / NA
0 Connections
AF 5382 0 BOD LYS CRK Su,M,T,W,Th,F J9 W9 S9 A9 Y9 B6 LC MC UC K2 HC QC TC EC NC RC VC XC
08/04/15 18:15 08/04/15 19:25 94% / 5m
0 Connections
A5 (DB) 4129 0 BOD LYS CRK Su,M,T,W,Th,F W9 S9 A9 Y1 B9 D9 M9 U9 P9 K9 HC J9 L9 Q9 T9 E9 N9 RC V9 X9 G9
08/04/15 20:50 08/04/15 22:00 NA / NA
0 Connections
AF 5460 0 BOD LYS CRK Su,M,T,W,Th,F J9 W9 S9 A9 Y9 B9 L9 M9 U9 K9 HC Q9 T9 E9 N9 R9 VC X9
08/04/15 20:50 08/04/15 22:00 95% / 27m
Last edited by Calchas; Mar 26, 2015 at 7:32 pm
Apr 2, 2015, 3:57 pm
#24
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if somebody could explain me
checking-in for CDG-MPL. Booked classic fare on AF web site. This flight is a "pure" AF one : operated only under AF code (I mean no A5 code, of course you have all the other Skyteam or non-Skyteam code-shares), by an AF plane and crew (A320). And this is ex-CDG, so not concerned by the ORY reorganization.
My BP mentions : "Cabin : BASIC" , instead of "cabin : Y /Economy".
And if I'm not mistaken, "basic" is an HOP term ?
What a mess...
My BP mentions : "Cabin : BASIC"
, instead of "cabin : Y /Economy".And if I'm not mistaken, "basic" is an HOP term ?
What a mess...
Apr 3, 2015, 1:33 am
#25
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checking-in for CDG-MPL. Booked classic fare on AF web site. This flight is a "pure" AF one : operated only under AF code (I mean no A5 code, of course you have all the other Skyteam or non-Skyteam code-shares), by an AF plane and crew (A320). And this is ex-CDG, so not concerned by the ORY reorganization.
My BP mentions : "Cabin : BASIC" , instead of "cabin : Y /Economy".
And if I'm not mistaken, "basic" is an HOP term ?
What a mess...
My BP mentions : "Cabin : BASIC"
, instead of "cabin : Y /Economy".And if I'm not mistaken, "basic" is an HOP term ?
What a mess...
I asked four different AF staff about the change (first at ticketing - I was very early and had plenty of time, then at check in, third in the patio waiting room, and finally at the gate - the plane was late) and not a single one of them had any clue what the change would entail for them, the passengers, or anyone else. They said that they just received a letter which was rather unspecific and were quite annoyed and demotivated about it.
Apr 5, 2015, 8:36 pm
#26
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So I try to buy a ticket ORY-NCE for the summer.
HOP gives me a structure Basic/Basic+/Flex and gives me 151.75 for a Basic+, 70 change fee, 1 bag/ nonrefundable, 250 miles.
AF starts to give me Basic/Basic+/Flex headings but no flights. After a few bugs, it finally gives me a Smart/Flex structure, with Smart at 251 with 50 change fee, 1 bag/ nonrefundable, 400 miles.
I can get Easyjet at similar timing for less than 70 including a bag and good preassigned seat.
I then try to book a family (two seniors and a child) on the same flight, then I get the family fare on AF at over 310 for 3. HOP does not have family fare so I get 430. On easyjet I get 200. Clearly the fare conditions are quite different on the three fares, AF family being the most flexible.
But so strange for AF/HOP. SO much bugging on AF website. And so much difference in price with easyjet.
HOP gives me a structure Basic/Basic+/Flex and gives me 151.75 for a Basic+, 70 change fee, 1 bag/ nonrefundable, 250 miles.
AF starts to give me Basic/Basic+/Flex headings but no flights. After a few bugs, it finally gives me a Smart/Flex structure, with Smart at 251 with 50 change fee, 1 bag/ nonrefundable, 400 miles.
I can get Easyjet at similar timing for less than 70 including a bag and good preassigned seat.
I then try to book a family (two seniors and a child) on the same flight, then I get the family fare on AF at over 310 for 3. HOP does not have family fare so I get 430. On easyjet I get 200. Clearly the fare conditions are quite different on the three fares, AF family being the most flexible.
But so strange for AF/HOP. SO much bugging on AF website. And so much difference in price with easyjet.
Apr 5, 2015, 9:33 pm
#27
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As the President of the CGMBCCAUF (Committee for the Guarantee of Mind-Boggling Complexity, Confusion and the Avoidance of User Friendliness) I thank you for your compliments. It seems we have done a great job.
Your feedback is encouraging, and our dedicated teams are working hard to bring you the next round of enhancements very soon (see footnote for what "very soon" means):
We are also experimenting with a random benefits generator for our marketing publications. First results are promising and we plan to launch a number of exciting product features for the next timetable season:
Changes are subject to agreement by Air France's unions. Current negotiations focus on whether the efforts for putting La Magazine so that it sits straight in the seatpocket can be compensated by retiring at the age of 52 with a full pension.
------------
What is the English term for "usine à gaz"?
What is the French for "They just don't get it, do they?"
Your feedback is encouraging, and our dedicated teams are working hard to bring you the next round of enhancements very soon (see footnote for what "very soon" means):
We are also experimenting with a random benefits generator for our marketing publications. First results are promising and we plan to launch a number of exciting product features for the next timetable season:
- For flights between ORY and, additional abonnés exciting, sweet lounges will be made available, enhancement of luggage miles before 9am
- Passengers on lounge fares on flights between Corsica and Corsica on luggage-coded flights exciting new opportunities for awards of new fare classes with simplified digital between La Navette and reading material enhancing automatic savoury luggage checking in, establishing Air France as a leader in the snack luggage lounge.
Changes are subject to agreement by Air France's unions. Current negotiations focus on whether the efforts for putting La Magazine so that it sits straight in the seatpocket can be compensated by retiring at the age of 52 with a full pension.
------------
What is the English term for "usine à gaz"?
What is the French for "They just don't get it, do they?"
Give me the AF marketing director mail, now !
He has to read this !