San Gottardo

I probably won't make friends by being the only one who doesn't mind AF doing this.

Seriously, the only evidenced disadvantage is the longer time it takes W passengers to disembark. All the other things are guesses ("more foot traffic" - why, of whom? "the IT won't cope" - let's wait and see, their recent IT changes have not fixed all glitches but has never made things worse but rather improved them; "complex price structure" - seriously? FTers do not mind figuring out all kinds of variants, tricks, ... Does any one complain about for instance the complexity of BA's seat assignment and pricing policies, which are organised by status, class, time of booking/OLCI, traveling companion, etc. And the general public may also be used to different pricing per seat, just see what they experience with LCCs; "less redemption possibilities" - we cannot seriously expect an airline to use this as an argument against managing the capacity of paid seats in a way it believes is right during two months of the year).

So, if it works - logistics, IT, customer support - and does not impact the travel experience of others, then why not? If they believe this is the right thing to do, let them do it and I don't see why I should wish for it to be a failure.

Now a separate question is whether I believe that this is a sign of commercial innovation and genius. In fact I don't, and I agree with all of those that point out AF's inability to attract a large number of premium pax (orbitmic's numbers confirm of another number, which is AFKL purpoteldly drawing only 38% of its revenue from premium pax, compared to 47% for IAG and 50% for Lufthansa Group - note that the latter two numbers have gone down as these airlines added LCC services to their network with Germanwings and Vueling). So this Quick Change initiative is not a sign of commercial genius but a sign of failure and an act of desperation. But that is their problem (and that of their shareholders), not mine as a traveler.

orbitmic

Nah, you don't lose friends for expressing different opinions, at least not on the AF forum, quite a nice place to be overall!

Ohhhhh yes you bet they do! Have you been to the BA forum lately? With the new BA policy on seat choice on HBO fares - even for Silver, Gold, and GGL (BA's nearest thing to HON) status, that is in fact most of what we are complaining about at the moment!

Of course not, but then nor do we need to support them. It is in the airline's interest to bring award/upgrade seat availability as close to zero as possible and make sure they never need to upgrade anyone. It Is in the interest of passengers to have ample award/upgrade opportunities and the occasional opup. I'm not an AF shareholder, so I unashamedly and most certainly wish them the worst possible failure with this plan it goes against my interest and I'm afraid I am not gentlemanly enough to put their interest above mine!

I don't think it is a separate question. Beyond the tongue in cheek points above, even from AF's point of you, I just think that it is an extremely lazy solution. If we don't manage to sell J and P seats well while Y is easier, why don't we continue to reduce the J and P seat offer till most of our flights operate the COI/loisir configuration or equivalent? Personally, I think that it is putting the problem completely upside down. I daresay AF has nothing to be proud of with this quick change idea, they are simply trying to spin their commercial incompetence into a technical innovation, and I am not impressed.

San Gottardo

That comes as a relief. I sometimes have the impression that there is a certain unfounded "at BA everything is better" mantra running through some forums (esp. the Lufthansa one, but also here sometimes) when it turns out that while many things are better some are just as bad (mileage accrual from April onwards) or worse (LHR transfers, First Class product, J class food).

Nevertheless my point holds that the phenomenon of planes becoming like theatres or concert halls where every seat has a different price becomes more and more common and that people get used to it. I don't like it, but I don't think AF creates a disadvantage for itself or for its passengers.

Point taken.

I mean "separate" in the sense that the assessment depends on whether I look at it from a pax point of view or the airline's/its shareholders' point of view. There are things that are "lazy solutions" as you say or stupid from a commercial point of view but great or indifferent from a passenger point of view. Two examples:

1) Quick change - lazy solution and just fostering a weakness in the premium segment, but OK for passengers
2) Platinum for life - great for pax that can have Plat status without "effort" (I am the living proof) but senseless for the airline that does not loyalise passengers (it doesn't have much cost associated with these pax being Platinum but it spends money elsewhere to attract them).

All 100% agreed, but does it matter to me when I take a flight with them? No. Does it matter to me as a shareholder who sees the company making stupid moves? Yes. Hence my point about "separate" question.

brunos

Indeed, this is mere speculation.
But bets based on common sense and past AF experiences.

AF had been prolific in coming up with brilliant "ideas" that no one had implemented before, only to fail miserably.
To be fair, they quote the past experience of Aeropostale, where aircraft were flying post/freight overnight and fitted with seats for AF daytime. I remember hating those aircraft.
France has renowned engineers although with different talents than German engineers. The plan looks great on paper. On 772, six rows of J (24 seats) will be replaced by six rows of Y (60 seats). Technical challenges are to fit tightly the seats to the floor structure and to wire them (including the TV system). Let's pray that these challenges can be met quickly and reliably over the short and long term. BEST are new Zodiac seats only installed on AF. Even if they are inspired by Cirrus, they are technically different. Any new seat is a challenge and reliability/durability has to be established. adding the technical challenge of quick change will not be trivial. Seats periodically run into problems (including video system), having problems fixed by the crew or the outstations will be tough.

My other major issue mentioned above is fleet management. With nine different configs for the 777s, any aircraft going tech or seriously delayed will create havoc as an identical config is not likely to be available as backup. And the problem will spread to the next route where the ac was scheduled. So many bad surprises in store.

But miracles do happen, so I sincerely wish AF to work a miracle.

Goldorak

Well, 10 years in a row of platinum status is not what I call without effort

I have flown those planes a couple of times, when they were flying AF routes (so > 15 years ago) and once recently during the pilot strike when my BCN-CDG flight was finally operated by l'Aéropostale and, to be fair, I have never seen any difference with a "normal" aircraft.

Indeed, and for AF it's a very different challenge than removing simple Y seats, without IFE, remote control, USB port, like in the case of l'Aéropostale planes.
Also, something "stupid" I thought about : the numbering of rows. Row numbers (and letters) are printed on plates that are stuck on overhead bins. They will have to remove most of them to re-number with more rows (and more letters) for the Y front cabin, hoping that they don't have to change the numbering until the back end of the cabin (I think it's OK for this as W usually begins in row 20 something).

I fully agree...

orbitmic

Gosh no! The BA forum is rather outspoken. The tone is often harsh, both towards the airline and towards fellow posters (you would have lost friends there I guess! ). At the moment, the HBO seating question is leading to some level of uprising, not least by some some GGL and CCR card holders know to fly BA F on a pretty much weekly basis.

BA asked for it too - telling those people that on the rare occasion they fly BA Y with hand luggage only they will have to get a random seat which might be the middle one near the toilets? BA deserve all the venom they are getting on that one!

And you are right, BA IS better in a number of way but also not in many others, and frankly, product quality wise it has slipped quite a lot since the time it was the first airline to offer fully flat beds in J.

I might be more pessimistic than you here, but to me it also matters as a passenger because in my experience, the less AF focuses on J, the less good the service it offers in that class. The "loisirs" planes are an excellent case in point. I just find service levels in J typically lower than on normal flights. I think it might have to do with all the idiotic AF-Unions negotiations when it comes to those things: fewer J pax = J crew, but then instead of saying that proportionality should result in similar service they negotiate lower service standards because to make the work (I quote) manageable.

I also think that the mess that I expect will be "paid for" by passengers rather than AF. You say it is a guess, but I must say that I tend to side with brunos's interpretation which makes it more like "anticipation". It's just a bit like the Syriza government and the economy, sometimes, you do not need to wait for confirmation to know that they were never going to be able to do what they claimed they would without precipitating the country into economic catastrophe. Well, quick change sounds a bit like the end of fiscal rigour to me! Be it Goldorak's seat numbers or brunos's tv wiring, you just know that some things will go wrong. It always had, even in the context of technically unchallenging situations (I was on the first AF A380 flight, I know what I am talking about!) so the idea that "this time it will be different" as AF would have us believe strikes me as extraordinarily unlikely.

brunos

I am not sure that they need to change row numbering.
One row of J will be replaced by one row of Y. Row numbers need not change.

Goldorak

If the case, that would be the best Y of the world in term of seat pitch and, as I said in another post above, Y will be better than W.
But, otherwise, I would say that in 2 rows of J, you can put 3 rows of Y hence the rows re-numbering.

San Gottardo

I meant that in some forums of *other airlines* (not BA) there sometimes is a slight or less slight bias in favour of BA. I sensed that in the Lufthansa forum (but not the LX one) when LH started to deteriorate its on-board and FFP/status products, where people all cried out loud how much better BA is. And in the AFKL forums I sometimes have the same impression.

The BA forum is Speakers' Corner, that is true!

Maybe I am just too naive to give them the benefit of the doubt... although from own experience I should know better (hilarious recent experience: an email from someone in AF France's management team expressing his real interest in my feedback and promising to get back to me "and I'll hurry". That was more than two months ago. I should really know that AF is as good at "getting what customers want" as Sue Ellen of Dallas is at getting off the bottle. )

Let's see.

brunos

This is just an educated guess, but the announcement is clear.
They are removing 24 J seats for 60 Y seats (772). On a 777 each row of J consists of 4 seats and each row of Y consists of 10 seats. The maths are simple and means 6 rows in both cases.

I do not know the seat pitch (distance between two seats) of the BEST seat, but it must be close to the typical Y seat pitch, probably a bit more but not much (I think that I heard 36 but not sure). Of course, the length of the seat is different as it goes sideways and under the seat in front.
Whether the resulting seat pitch will be 32 or 36, I do not know. But it seems clear that the row numbering will not change.

Goldorak

Good point indeed

San Gottardo

Good point - but looking only at one dimension. Row numbers won't change, but they still need to add seat numbers. Row with seats 8ADGK will have to be relabelled 8ABCDEFGHJK. So, new labels will be needed.

JohnnyRockets

Was on the 77W.

Forward Y pitch is very close to W, if not better. The meal service doesn't start from here either (Saw carts with half-full bottles). It's like a generous Delta C+ with real Champagne. I don't think AF release these seats unless the back is full or you pay/qualify for it.

carnarvon

Do you mean you were seated in a Y seat after this part of the plane had been through the "quick change" process (i.e. replacing C seats with Y seats when load is low)?

JohnnyRockets

Correct, I forced myself to fly this one.
And, No I don't remember seeing open seats in J or even W but plenty on the forward Y. I like to personally call this "Faux Y" cabin