AF to discontinue Premium Economy on medium haul flights + other "improvements"
#46
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Programs: KL Platinum; A3 Gold
Posts: 28,730
#47
FlyerTalk Evangelist, Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere between 0 and 13,000 metres high
Programs: AF/KL Life Plat, BA GGL+GfL, ALL Plat, Hilton Diam, Marriott Gold, blablablah, etc
Posts: 30,528
Fair enough in your case, but like Goldorak, I think that this seems like an idiosyncrasy of your employer rather than a generalizable system. If anything, I wonder if C would be harder to justify not because it is C per se but precisely because it is two classes up (rather than 1) from the official policy, in which case, for better or worse, C might be the new W?
#48
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Seat 1A, Juice pretty much everywhere, Mucci des Coins Exotiques
Posts: 34,339
I do understand that you have an experience that spreads over many years. But things have changed in the recent past and cost controls have spread like a bad virus.
Admittedly France is very slow to adapt to change and to internet tools. Nevertheless, many medium-sized French companies with a corporate contract with AF ask employees to use a self-booking tool if they book AF. Otherwise (other airlines), they have to go through the company's official TA who does the control or report to the company's travel official. You quickly get flagged if you don't adhere to travel policy.
I am also a bit surprised that you seem to imply that it is common practice that the employee pays for a ticket himself and then get reimbursed upon the presentation of air ticket receipts. And your employers must be very lax if you simply have to pre-warn them that you travel LH business. In most companies, either the policy allows you to ravel LH J or not, with exceptions being made on a case by case basis but always having to be pre-authorized.
Admittedly France is very slow to adapt to change and to internet tools. Nevertheless, many medium-sized French companies with a corporate contract with AF ask employees to use a self-booking tool if they book AF. Otherwise (other airlines), they have to go through the company's official TA who does the control or report to the company's travel official. You quickly get flagged if you don't adhere to travel policy.
I am also a bit surprised that you seem to imply that it is common practice that the employee pays for a ticket himself and then get reimbursed upon the presentation of air ticket receipts. And your employers must be very lax if you simply have to pre-warn them that you travel LH business. In most companies, either the policy allows you to ravel LH J or not, with exceptions being made on a case by case basis but always having to be pre-authorized.
I've had plenty of experiences in the past at multiple mid and smaller corporations where the cost control people were angry with my monthly expenses, but the CEO told them to go cry in the corner because the value I was bringing in vastly outweighed my travel expenses. The reason I am sure that I'm not the only one is because the biz and PE cabins are full on a great many routes I take. One routes where they are not doing well, airlines are cutting back. Maybe a tiny percentage of these people are op-ups, but that just doesn't happen often on Euro airlines.
If I bought your argument, I would have to close my eyes and pretend that these premium cabins were empty. I often talk to the person sitting next to me and they are usually people who bring in revenue or are high enough up on the corporate ladder where there exists a different travel policy.
#49
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Paris, France
Programs: AF/KL Flying Blue Platinum for life/Club2000 Ultimate, Accor ALL Diamond
Posts: 21,922
Why would self-booking tools be only in large corporations? This is a fairly simple generic software where only the parameters are set for each company/employee. If anything, i would think that they are less needed for large corporations with dedicated guys looking after travel.
And even if bookings are made through a dedicated travel agent, as used to be the case, the TA has clear instructions on what is allowed by the corporate policy or not. I think that the time of "vague" travel policies is gone.
And even if bookings are made through a dedicated travel agent, as used to be the case, the TA has clear instructions on what is allowed by the corporate policy or not. I think that the time of "vague" travel policies is gone.
I do understand that you have an experience that spreads over many years. But things have changed in the recent past and cost controls have spread like a bad virus.
Admittedly France is very slow to adapt to change and to internet tools. Nevertheless, many medium-sized French companies with a corporate contract with AF ask employees to use a self-booking tool if they book AF. Otherwise (other airlines), they have to go through the company's official TA who does the control or report to the company's travel official. You quickly get flagged if you don't adhere to travel policy.
Admittedly France is very slow to adapt to change and to internet tools. Nevertheless, many medium-sized French companies with a corporate contract with AF ask employees to use a self-booking tool if they book AF. Otherwise (other airlines), they have to go through the company's official TA who does the control or report to the company's travel official. You quickly get flagged if you don't adhere to travel policy.
I can confirm that it is definitely not limited to large companies, and is indeed, no "trouble". In most European countries, there are a few travel agents which concentrate well over 90% of the company travel markets (both small and large) and they have come up with the self booking tools long ago.
Self booking tools are part of what those TAs offer when trying to win contracts with smaller companies even more than with large ones. There is absolutely zero need to adapt the tool to individual companies as the TA simply enters the parameters of each policy for each type of account user, and what you get is a self-booking tool just like Expedia's or Opodo's and when you log on, it lets you book whatever you need/want except that it then signals you (1) if your choice is out of policy, (2) if there were other cheaper alternatives available even if your trip was within policy (with most employers you will then need to select a justification for why you chose that instead, like flight times, number of stop, airline's choice, etc).
I don't like self-booking tools and am glad for you that your company has not chosen to use one, but I can guarantee you that across most of Europe, companies both large and small (I mean, maybe not with 5 employees, but most companies with even 20 or 50 employees!) have made that choice long ago. And indeed, when they have, PE is definitely flagged as outside of policy if the policy says Y.
Self booking tools are part of what those TAs offer when trying to win contracts with smaller companies even more than with large ones. There is absolutely zero need to adapt the tool to individual companies as the TA simply enters the parameters of each policy for each type of account user, and what you get is a self-booking tool just like Expedia's or Opodo's and when you log on, it lets you book whatever you need/want except that it then signals you (1) if your choice is out of policy, (2) if there were other cheaper alternatives available even if your trip was within policy (with most employers you will then need to select a justification for why you chose that instead, like flight times, number of stop, airline's choice, etc).
I don't like self-booking tools and am glad for you that your company has not chosen to use one, but I can guarantee you that across most of Europe, companies both large and small (I mean, maybe not with 5 employees, but most companies with even 20 or 50 employees!) have made that choice long ago. And indeed, when they have, PE is definitely flagged as outside of policy if the policy says Y.
#50
FlyerTalk Evangelist, Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere between 0 and 13,000 metres high
Programs: AF/KL Life Plat, BA GGL+GfL, ALL Plat, Hilton Diam, Marriott Gold, blablablah, etc
Posts: 30,528
Bear in mind that those 12 people include: (1) all connecting PE passengers (who used not to sit there until a few years ago), (2) all passengers on fully flex fare who need full flexibility anyway (for instance, if you want a one way ticket which is not MiNi, it automatically offers you A,S,W only) and will continue to want it, and (3) then the "leftover", the people whom you are mentioning, who do not necessarily need the full flexibility and willy only choose AF PE because of the 200% miles on FB (but again, they get nearly the same bonus with LH anyway, full fare Y would get you 1500 miles on FB and 1250 on LH, except that on the latter, elite bonus miles coming in addition will also count towards status renewal) and the better food and drink. I think that the very loads you are mentioning to us point out to a complete failure of the system. You keep referring to it as "full" but it only shows that RM is doing a good job ensuring that PE numbers are on the (lower end of) table of 6s!
And I'm still not sure what you are referring to in terms of self-booking tools. You must have something completely different in mind from what we are using in the different companies I have worked for which requires neither a travel person nor IT work, nor anything of the kind. All it requires is the use of a specified travel agent, which again, the vast majority of companies use to my knowledge. In fact, in case anyone is not aware, even AF-KL is happy to offer this exact same service with the exact same self-booking tool for any small company enrolled in BlueBiz which does not already have a corporate TA!
#51
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Paris, France
Programs: AF/KL Flying Blue Platinum for life/Club2000 Ultimate, Accor ALL Diamond
Posts: 21,922
It's not at all lax as all expenses are scrutinized. Companies do not install new IT systems, or engage the services of travel "staff" unless they really need it. Even if it is all outsourced. I work in tech and tech companies all start out small and try to get big. In order to get big, they have to have staff that travel. Let's say there are two types of traveling employees. One type engages in a non-rev function, and the other engages in functions that bring in revenue or otherwise directly enhance the value of the company. Travel policies at mid-sized companies exist for the first group, and not the second.
I've had plenty of experiences in the past at multiple mid and smaller corporations where the cost control people were angry with my monthly expenses, but the CEO told them to go cry in the corner because the value I was bringing in vastly outweighed my travel expenses. The reason I am sure that I'm not the only one is because the biz and PE cabins are full on a great many routes I take. One routes where they are not doing well, airlines are cutting back. Maybe a tiny percentage of these people are op-ups, but that just doesn't happen often on Euro airlines.
If I bought your argument, I would have to close my eyes and pretend that these premium cabins were empty. I often talk to the person sitting next to me and they are usually people who bring in revenue or are high enough up on the corporate ladder where there exists a different travel policy.
I've had plenty of experiences in the past at multiple mid and smaller corporations where the cost control people were angry with my monthly expenses, but the CEO told them to go cry in the corner because the value I was bringing in vastly outweighed my travel expenses. The reason I am sure that I'm not the only one is because the biz and PE cabins are full on a great many routes I take. One routes where they are not doing well, airlines are cutting back. Maybe a tiny percentage of these people are op-ups, but that just doesn't happen often on Euro airlines.
If I bought your argument, I would have to close my eyes and pretend that these premium cabins were empty. I often talk to the person sitting next to me and they are usually people who bring in revenue or are high enough up on the corporate ladder where there exists a different travel policy.
But, believe us also, the situation we describe is now unfortunately the most common one. And in many companies, travel policies are often written by people who never travel which makes the travelers very unhappy because those people are very far from the reality of frequent business travel. And I'm not talking here only about air travel, but also hotels, meals, taxis, etc.
#52
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Seat 1A, Juice pretty much everywhere, Mucci des Coins Exotiques
Posts: 34,339
I deal mostly with American companies and I just haven't seen that level of control anywhere, except at large corporations. And yes I am talking about here and now in 2014. I always pay myself and get reimbursed later.
Another point of proof, if everything was controlled down to the point of the company credit cards, then who are all those people who have AF/KL/BA etc. Amex cards? I'm sure that some companies have corporate cards, but clearly not all.
#53
FlyerTalk Evangelist, Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere between 0 and 13,000 metres high
Programs: AF/KL Life Plat, BA GGL+GfL, ALL Plat, Hilton Diam, Marriott Gold, blablablah, etc
Posts: 30,528
Well, I can only repeat:
- Anyone travelling long haul premium economy (AF offers very competitive PE fares from Austria and remember that at this stage, AF, BA, and TK have been the only three major European airlines offering this to passengers in Austria and the rest of Europe);
- Anyone on a fully flexible ticket and/or anyone on a one way ticket! That is/should be quite a lot of people! - ideally much more than 12!
- Anyone travelling long haul premium economy (AF offers very competitive PE fares from Austria and remember that at this stage, AF, BA, and TK have been the only three major European airlines offering this to passengers in Austria and the rest of Europe);
- Anyone on a fully flexible ticket and/or anyone on a one way ticket! That is/should be quite a lot of people! - ideally much more than 12!
#54
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Seat 1A, Juice pretty much everywhere, Mucci des Coins Exotiques
Posts: 34,339
And in many companies, travel policies are often written by people who never travel which makes the travelers very unhappy because those people are very far from the reality of frequent business travel. And I'm not talking here only about air travel, but also hotels, meals, taxis, etc.
One particular incident I recall that fits this. I had to attend a conference at a Four Seasons hotel. I almost never stay at FS on business travel, but this time I had to. And due to a good conference rate, it wasn't terribly expensive. However I heard the the entire accounting department wanted my head on a platter because I turned in a Four Seasons receipt! To them, this was worse than the business class RTW tickets I paid many thousands for. Fortunately the CEO knew about this conference and in fact had asked me to attend so he had a laugh about the whole thing. However he still asked me to never stay at an FS hotel again because he didn't want the grief.
#55
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Paris, France
Programs: AF/KL Flying Blue Platinum for life/Club2000 Ultimate, Accor ALL Diamond
Posts: 21,922
You are 100% correct here and this is the real problem. And it is psychological rather than economic. Those back office bean counters do not travel, yet they sit back and review our expenses and are jealous of us jetting around the world and eating at nice restaurants, etc. They take their once-a-year jet holiday in the back of the plane and get steamed about how they have to approve our business class expenses. This is why I make sure that the CEO, or some such upper level manager, knows all about my travels before the AP people come running to him to complain.
One particular incident I recall that fits this. I had to attend a conference at a Four Seasons hotel. I almost never stay at FS on business travel, but this time I had to. And due to a good conference rate, it wasn't terribly expensive. However I heard the the entire accounting department wanted my head on a platter because I turned in a Four Seasons receipt! To them, this was worse than the business class RTW tickets I paid many thousands for. Fortunately the CEO knew about this conference and in fact had asked me to attend so he had a laugh about the whole thing. However he still asked me to never stay at an FS hotel again because he didn't want the grief.
One particular incident I recall that fits this. I had to attend a conference at a Four Seasons hotel. I almost never stay at FS on business travel, but this time I had to. And due to a good conference rate, it wasn't terribly expensive. However I heard the the entire accounting department wanted my head on a platter because I turned in a Four Seasons receipt! To them, this was worse than the business class RTW tickets I paid many thousands for. Fortunately the CEO knew about this conference and in fact had asked me to attend so he had a laugh about the whole thing. However he still asked me to never stay at an FS hotel again because he didn't want the grief.
#56
FlyerTalk Evangelist, Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere between 0 and 13,000 metres high
Programs: AF/KL Life Plat, BA GGL+GfL, ALL Plat, Hilton Diam, Marriott Gold, blablablah, etc
Posts: 30,528
#57
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hong Kong, France
Programs: FB , BA Gold
Posts: 15,556
Just for the fun of it, let me mention the policy where I currently work. We have a per diem policy with the amount depending on the city, so we cannot afford luxury hotels (unless we pay the difference). HOWEVER, if we attend a conference, and I have many conferences to attend, they will reimburse the conference hotel whatever the cost, even if FS.
#58
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: 🇸🇬 🇭🇰 🇫🇷
Programs: Many
Posts: 4,749
Well, I can only repeat:
- Anyone travelling long haul premium economy (AF offers very competitive PE fares from Austria and remember that at this stage, AF, BA, and TK have been the only three major European airlines offering this to passengers in Austria and the rest of Europe);
- Anyone on a fully flexible ticket and/or anyone on a one way ticket! That is/should be quite a lot of people! - ideally much more than 12!
- Anyone travelling long haul premium economy (AF offers very competitive PE fares from Austria and remember that at this stage, AF, BA, and TK have been the only three major European airlines offering this to passengers in Austria and the rest of Europe);
- Anyone on a fully flexible ticket and/or anyone on a one way ticket! That is/should be quite a lot of people! - ideally much more than 12!
On most of my AF flights, PE is full.
#59
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Paris, France
Programs: AF/KL Flying Blue Platinum for life/Club2000 Ultimate, Accor ALL Diamond
Posts: 21,922
Quite possible. It is an assumption on my part rather than an information. The picture used in the article (which unfortunately I cannot copy and post here) shows a block of 3 seats and is taken from a slight angle with no button to be seen anywhere on the armrests hence my conclusion. Said picture is of the C cabin and while the middle seat continues to be blocked, the ''flip-down'' table and the possibility to move the armrests laterally also seem to have disappeared. Furthermore, the accompanying text actually states that the seats already have a 19 degrees angle of recline and not ''up to'' which, in my opinion, meant that it was a fixed feature.
It is a very nice and comfortable leather seat.
#60
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hong Kong, France
Programs: FB , BA Gold
Posts: 15,556
If AF does invest in a comfortable reclining seat that is the best piece of news for some time.
They can try various versions of their pricing and food services based on some brilliant, or not so brilliant, ideas and quickly revert to some other model. But the seat is a fixed investment for many years to come.