San Gottardo

Huh?? You clearly missed the point.

The point is that BA offers free upgrades, mileage earning for the upgraded class, and generous mileage bonuses, whilst AF offers nothing.

Indeed "I" class is not included in the BA offer. But all other classes are eligible, which is a lot more than AF where no class whatsoever qualifies for anything at all.

The contrast is striking.

(and yes, I did read the small print, which had more good surprises than bad)

brunos

Indeed, quite surprising that AF is doing nothing, zilch, nada.
While BA is offering a free unrestricted bonus to all its J, C, D, R business class pax. For example, you can get a ORY-HKG outbound in D return in F for only 3,502EUR net, and change/refund fee of 200. Compare to same itin on AF....
Stimpy, indeed the lowest fare I is excluded, but I just got a return trip to Asia for 2,100 and upgraded to F for just 30,000 avios.

In the meanwhile, I can see that the AF A380 from HKG is flying with a lot of empty F seats. What a waste (except for pilots family/friends).

San Gottardo

And it would not cost a lot to use those empty seats and run a free upgrade campaign, either for all or at least for certain target clients. Handing out Miles generously is more costly, and I do understand that Air France can't afford to splash out right now.

A very smart move by British Airways. They do not have to regain any trust, but use their financial strength to take shots at their competitors at a moment where they are wounded already. Without making a move BA was ahead of AF and LH who had lost customer trust. If LH and AF has started offers to regain clients the gap could have been narrowed. Now that AF and LH so nothing but BA gets out the marketing bazooka the gap will widen.

I maintain that communication is the #1 priority for AF to deal with the post-strike. But commercial moves have now suddenly become very important as well because of BA's move.

Let's see what AF comes up with.

NickB

It is not a conjectural reaction to any event but the standard regular BA promotional offering every year.

With respect to oneway upgrades, the one difference that there is this year (and perhaps last year too; I can't remember) is that the offer is slightly more generous than in previous years in that it includes R class whereas it used to be just C,D and J.

As regards the bonus miles offer, it has been a feature of BA Autumn term offering for BAEC members in continental Europe for eons. It has become slightly less generous in that they used to have generous bonus miles offers on both long-haul and intra-European business class travel whereas the current campaign is for long-haul only.

stimpy

I don't take this to mean they will never do anything in this regard. But I think it is clear to everyone here that AF's Premiere is much more exclusive than BA F.

Thank Bruno as you got my point. Since the I fare is excluded, this BA promo is useless to most of us. I'm happy for people who are allowed or able to book higher fares though.

But regarding the normal BA upgrade process, you must know that it has changed for the worse in recent times. This is heavily chronicled here on the BA Board. I used to upgrade to F quite often on long flights. But I haven't been able to for about 2 years now because BA now blocks these upgrades until the last minute and I have not been lucky enough to call in at the right time to get an upgrade. The last time I tried was in July, ORD-LHR and even the day before BA said I could not upgrade. However once I reached the ORD F lounge, I was offered an upgrade for something like $900. The bottom line is that you cannot count on UuA with BA anymore. Good for you that you got it to work though.

NickB

In what sense exactly is it "more exclusive"? In the sense that AF has far fewer routes and aircraft equipped with F and F is therefore less common on AF (presumably because AF struggles more to sell it)? That is true.

Because AF has made a commercial decision to make F far less accessible to FFP members by treating in a similar way, for award redemption purposes, as SQ does for its F suites and require astronomical amounts of miles for redemptions despite the AF product not being remotely comparable? That is true too.

Because the AF F product is of a much higher quality than the BA F product? I am not a regular flyer on either airline's F product so I will let you and other more regular flyers than me explain but it seems to me that the only aspect of the product on which AF has a very clear lead is on their respective F lounges at CDG/LHR (viz. the salon première versus the CCR). For the rest, I really struggle to see in what way the AF F product could be described as markedly more "exclusive" in quality terms to the BA one.

Wow... what a massive over-statement. So most persons travelling in a BA CW cabin are on an I fare?

brunos

If by exclusive you mean that AF offers a very small number of F seats in its network compared to BA, I agree. If you mean that AF cabins are mostly empty, I agree. if you mean that AF seat/wine/food/service is superior, I disagree on all counts.

The question of AF apathy compared to BA, raised by San Gottardo, is a very good one. There is a significant, and profitable, segment of AF longhaul clientele who flies business class. For them, upgrade to F is important just like it is for a usual cheap Y pax who can get to fly PE or J.
It would be good timing for AF to offer opup to F for its profitable J customers, but they don't.
On the other hand BA does. You can quibble that it is only open to J, C, D and R fare buckets, but they even offer it to I for a cheap cost. What is surprising is that the booking process is so easy and transparent. When you want to book business, they show the cheapest Biz fare, but they also show the F fare. For example, I currently can get a I fare, nonrefundable and 350 change fee for 3092. If I choose F on one (only one) of the leg, the fare becomes 3,502 refundable/change fee 200. So for 410 I get one leg in F and a refundable ticket. Yes, it is not free as on an upper fare basis (J, C, D) but it only costs 410 and brings refundability.
Sorry to be OT, but BA is so dynamic with pricing and satisfying its business pax that it is impressive compared to AF.

stimpy

You misread. Us means us here on Flyertalk. Not the whole world.

stimpy

Really? You think BA F can compare with AF P on wine service and food? Sorry but that is just laughable. It's not even close.

I'd love to be able to upgrade to P just as I'd love to be able to upgrade to BA's F. But as I noted above it hasn't been possible for me in recent times with BA's new strategy. With AF inventory it is simply not realistic, but I wish they would try. At least a few people would get the pleasure.


Sorry, but as I just noted BA does not offer upgrades anymore like they used to. It simply been impossible for most of us since BA changed their strategy. Only a few lucky ones, or people who travel on certain routes where F is empty. Again, this is well chronicled on the BA board and should not be news to BA regulars.

I agree that BA's website in this regard is much better and of course I agree that BA's pricing for F is much cheaper than AF.

orbitmic

You both know I usually agree with 99% of what you say, but this might have to be the exception that confirms the rule. Like NickB, F is far from my usual class of travel so I have only experienced it on a handful of occasions with those airlines, but based on that as well as the new product being rolled out, I think it is entirely fair to say that the BA product is much less exclusive than the AF one and not only because of the number of seats:

Ground product: not only is there a very significant difference in lounges but there I a very significant difference in the overall ground product. AF will escort passengers to/from plane (heck, they even take you to your CDG-NCE connecting flight!). With BA you get none of this. You are on your own and enjoy the crowded little ride to T5C like the rest of us or even the good old gate boarding from A10 as far as I understand.

In terms of the "soft" F ground product, it seems that AF also take its F pax far more seriously than BA. Multiple posters on this thread have reported being taken to the front of the immigration queue in the US (not something a BA F pax could ever dream of, although you do get it on the second CWLCY flight!) and people are effectively treated like royalty before connecting flights too (again, the NCE example is quite telling, you get your personal escort throughout, etc).

Now of course, one might very well not care about all those things but it would be hard to claim that they are not there and are not meant at creating a more "exclusive" service.

Onboard: Well, I haven't tried the new AF P seat and expressed some reservations about some aspects, but to be frank, it seems hard to me to claim that this plays in the same league as BA (which has already announced that its new F seat will be much of the same but with new "fresher" colour scheme and trimmings). Of course it is not fully rolled out yet, but again, the installation has started and it would seem unfair to me to ignore it. Plus as we are talking about a very limited number of planes, the roll out will be much faster than anything else AF has known to date.

Even though my AF P experience dates, I also found food not that great but still very significantly less poor than BA which is frankly underwhelming. The BA F menu is effectively a relatively improved version of the J menu. Indeed, some of the mains are routinely common to both! AF seem to have beefed up the experience of late, reintroduced caviar (I know many people don't like it, I do!) and generally improved dishes. I agree that wines are chronically better on BA.

Much of the AF soft product has also been improved with the new Sofitel mybed duvets etc being introduced and honestly that will be a league above BA.

So to me, while the AF First product is nowhere near best in class at this stage, it is very distinctively above BA F as it stands already and will be even more so within a year or so.

Where I disagree with stimpy is that I effectively don't see what it has to do with AF not allowing people to experience and "get hooked" to the AF P experience. To me, exclusivity is not really related to this and in the context of this thread, the whole point is that AF has taken a further (there were already plenty non-strike related ones) dent on its credibility with high contribution travellers with the strike. BA is good at organising regular promotions to entice those high contribution passengers and keeping them faithful (as NickB says, both the F upgrade and the bonus avios are regular. Only F upgrade did not use to include R indeed, and by contrast bonus avios used to include premium economy up to two years ago).

By contrast, is doing absolutely nothing so far. What would be wrong in a targeted P upgrade policy which would precisely ensure that people can see for themselves that the AF P is "more exclusive"? What would be wrong in showing that the airline is sorry in action rather than words? Because frankly, so far, when it comes to the post strike recovery, we are left with blah blah and nothing else. It may change and I hope it does, but it had better change quickly or AF had better not come whining that they have been affected by the strike because of the customer dissatisfaction it has created, because it is entirely within their capacity to avoid that for the most part... if they can be bothered.

San Gottardo

Which precisely demonstrates why your post was missing the point.

British Airways is offering upgrade on almost every route and almost every booking class, plus mileage bonus. Air France offers nothing. You then point out that British Airways could have gone even a little further by including one more booking class, because you believe that this is the booking class most often used by posters in this forum. Even if that were true, it still leaves the number of commercial actions by Air France at zero. The difference between the two is not as big as it could be, but is still substantial.

It's a bit like me arguing that a Porsche is faster than a Peugeot. You then say that the Porsche cannot go at its full speed on small mountain roads in the Himalayas. True, but it still doesn't make the Peugeot any faster.

Analogy: it's not because the British airways offer doesn't cover every possible segment that the Air France offer looks better, when there in fact is no offer whatsoever from Air France.

brunos

I don't think that we want to be drawn again in a comparison BA/AF. I was just reacting to the statement:
"But I think it is clear to everyone here that AF's Premiere is much more exclusive than BA F. "
I just wanted to voice that at least one here disagreed.
But since you push me, I will stick to my gun. I know that FT is renowned for having posters voicing their opinion on products they never used (except possibly when boarding through premium cabins to reach their Y seat) and I know that you are not one of those. But to be fair a comparison should be drawn between the current F products of both airlines.

BA now only flies its New F; the old F is sold as J. I have flown it many times and I love it on 777 very much. It is not only the design and elegance of the new seats and it numerous gadgets and lamps. It is also the wonderful ambiance created by the Orient-express window shade. I find the ambiance and the seat very "exclusive". Yes the seat is less spacious than CX, SQ and many others (and probably the new AF F). But it is very modern, very comfortable, quite private, and the cabin has a great feel. Orbitmic, I agree that Old F was poor and aging (although the wines were superb and the food excellent). New F is more than a face lift, the new seat is much better (although still not wide enough, my only complain) and the overall cabin very attractive.

Unfortunately I have flown the old AF F seats many dozen times. Although I stopped flying it 2 years ago, it is still the same old seat. Poor plastic feeling, not very large and no privacy. Just feels like in a spacious bus where you can hear and see everyone. Most 777 are getting the single row of herringbone F. If anyone can find a feeling of exclusivity in this 1.5 meter long cabin, that is weird to me. Every seat is sandwiched between a wall and the galley. if it feels exclusive, a jail cell also does. and the galley noise once all FAs congregate to partake in leftovers and share jokes is deafening.

Inboard food, wine and service are a matter of personal taste (although wines are mostly a matter of budget which seems low at AF). It could be that the AF F soft product has been significantly improved and I accept that. Let me just say that my personal experience based on some 20 BA F flights is that the food is elaborate and I regard it as top. I mean I rank it among the best of any airlines, superior to CX and the food of AF (up to 2 years ago) was poor. Same comments for the wines. On the AF 4P 777, I often got a mediocre FA who enjoyed blabla but was not efficient or smart for service (my guess is that the purser reserve the good FAs for the tough job of serving J pax, and there are many good AF FAs, although very prone to blabla). The other truth is that you cannot afford to offer a wide food/wine selection when you have only four seats and only one or two are usually occupied.

Sorry, I started by planning a three-liner and my NZ Chardonnay at dinner got me all worked up. It seems like the AF new F seat will be up to par with the best, but it is not yet available. I might revise my judgment in a couple of years.

To get back to the topic. Yes, AF F is exclusive because so few pax. I remember talking with AF management when they introduced the new outrageous award level for F. Some other posters here might remember that they did mention as motivation that some pax felt it was not exclusive enough because all these award pax. Well they succeeded in that dimension of exclusivity. And they had to remove F on many aircraft and reduce to one row on the remaining ones (we know that they ponder what to do with the 9P A380 cabin). In the meanwhile, they lost a unique carrot for the regular J flyer and they'd better use that carrot quickly given the unhappiness with the recent strike. The success of the regular BA promotion on all routes is clear, and they made it even more attractive this year by making it available on R, as well as on I fares with a very low cost. It is a regular promotion, but its timing, without an equivalent at AF, is bad for AF.

stimpy

No, I actually didn't say anywhere in this thread that BA could have or even should have gone further. As a business decision I think that it's fine that they exclude I class. Again, I said that this promo is useless to most of us here, because we book the lowest cost business class which generally means I. That's 3 times I've written that and I think that's enough.

brunos

Fully agreed.

And BA even has an attractive offer for I pax. You can get F on one segment, but it is a modest extra rather than being free for all the other fare bucket. the extra range from 130EUR for US east Coast to 4410EUR for Far East. That is a very small cost for me and it makes the ticket refundable and changeable, which is not usually the case for I. Very attractive and new this year.

stimpy

Not sure what you are referring to here? Do you have a link that spells this out? The previous link simply excludes I-class.