Magyarok27

In reference to Remi Couturier (Air France Customer Service?)
I hope I'm replying in the right place; my first time using FlyerTalk. Anyway I was doing a google search and came across a name mentioned in a post/thread and Air France. Funny enough (or sadly), I received an e-mail reply from the very same person who said I was going to receive a refund on my business class ticket fare and upgrade miles refunded to my account. Mind you this e-mail was dated on March 28, 2014 and said "in approximately three weeks."

I called Air France/KLM/Delta yesterday, and after (wait for it) nearly 3 hours of hold, disconnect, transfers, etc., got nowhere
; and all I wanted to do was check on the status of my refund. After my "problems" on an AF flight in December and February (RT), I filed a complaint with them and the D.O.T. AF admitted their fault and the D.O.T., agreed; I haven't contacted EU, yet.

Needless to say, it has been nothing short of endless hours on the phone and the runaround. I'm so frustrated and wondering what to do now? Especially since all I asked them for was a ticket refund and an apology! Any thoughts? Oh and this isn't even about baggage but disability, etc., violations.... thanks everyone!

orbitmic

Welcome to Flyertalk! Could you please start at the beginning? I've read your post several times because I'd like to help but I can't make out what problem you experienced or what you are asking. Thanks in advance!

Magyarok27

Before I explain I'd like to apologize, for posting in two different forums the same post, sorry Admin....guess I'm a little old school.

Anyway, I told a "surprise" trip to visit my mother in Hungary, last year in December. Booked the ticket via Delta, code-share, but AF metal. Upgraded to business using miles (another nightmare in itself). ATL-CDG-BUD (RT). I was having issues with my right hand prior to my trip, and it was in a brace. Upon arriving at ATL, I let the agent know, I would need assistance with my carry-on, during my connections both directions. No problem, they let my husband accompany me to my gate actually, less hassle for them, I guess. Before arriving in CDG, I asked the FL if my request was noted, to be on the safe side. It wasn't! When the plane landed, I was told to stay on board until the other passengers got off, to wait for assistance. 15+ minutes later and already a tight connection for CDG, I was greeted at the gateway by a AF employee with an attitude and a WHEELCHAIR, no less. Frankly, I was appalled and embarrassed. When I argued with the "mr. Attitude" I was told it would be quicker this way. I did not want to miss my connection, and inconvenience my relatives waiting in BUD, so I sat in the chair, my handbags were loading on top of my lap like I was luggage cart and whisked through the airport. Only to be left waiting in another area with other's in a wheelchair too, (about 20+ minutes).

This happened both ways; though on the way back I refused the wheelchair at CDG. As for assistance at BUD, my cousin was not allowed to assist me, and their idea of assistance was dropping my bags off at the security check-point, etc., etc. Where I asked the location of my assistant, and told I needed to request that at check in. Hello, did my hand bags fly to security on their own?

Oh did I mention a FL actually had the nerve to ask ME to help HER lift my bags into the overhead compartment?? Yeah, hello, the obvious hand brace is not a new fad., that is a substitute for jewelry.

Along with a rude FL, who insisted I return to my seat, during a portion of the flight for safety reasons (needed to use the restroom very bad) while he sat in a jumpseat, with no seatbelt on, until instructing me to do so.

So anyway, I'm sure I missed some other details, but I've been dealing with this since I returned to the states in February. Endless e-mails, telephone conversations, so forth; and the rest was in my previous post!

orbitmic

Thanks for the explanations, it makes far more sense now. A couple of years ago, I suffered a double-fracture of my left elbow and was in horrible pain as well as a sling for over six weeks. Of course, I did not have any chance to reduce my travel during that period. This was very unpleasant and as sympathise with your experience of travelling with a bad hand.

That said, afew key points here:

- Throughout the EU, there is an obligation to offer assistance to people who suffer from a disability be it permanent or temporary. It covers a number of legally defined conditions, but I believe that a broken or painful hand is not one of them, even if it requires a brace. Air France's own terms and conditions in this regard are described as part of their Saphir programme described here: http://www.airfrance.co.uk/GB/en/com..._airfrance.htm. In the US, there is no such obligation at all so things are even more difficult.

- Still in the EU, airport assistance is always organised by airports, not by airlines, and airlines are limited by the type of assistance that individual airports can provide and also need to request it with specific notice.

- During my own broken elbow period, I found it extremely difficult to handle hand luggage and the only advice I received (from the over a dozen airlines I travelled during that period) was for me to travel without any.

- In the case of AF, such assistance must be requested at least 48 hours before travelling, in writing, by filling the corresponding saphir form (there are two of them depending on the type of condition involved - see above link).

- In Europe, where it is not permitted to go through airport security if you are not travelling, airport authorities will not allow a family member to accompany a traveller past security. Full stop. This is not an airline decision but the local security rules. In the US, some rules are 'stricter' (such as needing to take off your shoes at security!) but others are more laxed, including the possibility for people to go through security without a boarding pass.

- As mentioned above, airport assistance is divided into a number of eligible conditions. From my understanding, what the ATL people did is that they indicated the condition which they considered closest to your own (motor mobility) which you were effectively not entitled to instead of just denying you assistance altogether, which they would have been entitled to do. This is why you received a wheelchair. In other words, assistance - just like special meals - come in a number of "boxes" (motor disability, hearing impairment, visual impairment, mental disability, etc) and you can't have a custom design type of assistance for everyone - especially if your case does not fit a condition that is recognised as eligible.

- For people who want further assistance or who are not technically eligible for free airport assistance which should have been your case, AF offer a paid assistance system at CDG called "Ulysse" which is described on their website and can be ordered. However, it is a paid (and I believe relatively expensive) service.

- If the captain requires passengers to sit down with their seatbelt fastened, well, that's just it. There are no exceptions regardless of condition, need, etc. It is a safety measure and the captain is essentially entitled to take any reasonable measure to ensure safety and have it enforced through cabin crew. Obeying crew orders is an obligation for all of us on all airlines and suffers no exception. As for the FA who asked you to help with your own luggage despite your painful hand, I certainly agree it sounds rude, but just that. I have no idea what your hand luggage was like but a condition for any passenger when it comes to hand luggage is always that we take hand luggage which we are capable to lift into the overhead lockers without help. In fairness, FAs typically go out of their way to reasonably help, and while I have seen less help on other airlines, in - literally - hundreds of AF, I have never seen any FA refuse such help to people who needed it myself, I am sorry you had a different experience but again, while it is very rude and unpleasant indeed, helping passengers with their hand luggage is not part of FA's job on AF or on other airlines.

In short, while I feel for your unpleasant trip, and all the more so than it reminds me of extremely painful memories myself, I'm afraid that you simply do not have any entitlement to compensation as you were effectively not eligible for airport assistance and AF provided you with such assistance anyway using the category closest to the problem you reported even though you were not legally entitled to it.

NickB

While I agree with most of your post, I am somewhat puzzled by this. Why would the OP not be entitled to assistance? If you refer to the 48hrs advance notice issue, passengers are normally expected to provide such notice but the airport authorities remain under an obligation to assist passengers even when advance notice is given. The more important issue, however, is that, as you note, assistance to passengers at airports in the EU is not the responsibility of the airline but of the airport authorities under the relevant EU legislation.

orbitmic

Sorry, I expressed myself poorly! What I meant was that the OP did not fit in any of the categories typically recognised for airport assistance in application of regulation EC1107/2006. I just looked the codes used on GDS up and explainations given on a number of airports websites (Vienna had the neatest table to explain each of those codes!): WCHR (wheelchair for ramp), WCHS (wheelchair for steps), WCHC (wheelchair to cabin seat), BLND (blind), DEAF (deaf), BLND/DEAF (blind and deaf), DPNA (disabled passenger needing assistance, which typically encompasses mental, intellectual, and developmental conditions). Of course the OP could claim that her hand injury should have been considered a form of disability or reduced mobility that should have been recognised as necessitating specific airport assistance but I personally think it would be a difficult case to make (after all, transporting hand luggage, let alone hand luggage that cannot be successfully transported with one hand) may not be construed as a "right" by a court, and it seems to me that in entering the least inappropriate existing code even though none clearly matched the passenger's condition, the airline erred on the side of caution/empathy which should be praised rather than criticised. They could have used DPNA but the passenger is not suffering a disability per se and would have been taken care of by people trained to assist passengers suffering mental disabilities and the like which I personally think would have been far more unpleasant to the OP (at least if it were me, I would have found it more traumatic).

I guess my main point to the OP though was to stress that airlines act in the context of existing regulations and services operated by airports and using a series of pre-established categories that have been co-designed and recognised (in collaboration with representatives of disabled citizens associations, etc) and that it is not any more reasonable to expect custom-designed assistance when it comes to an injured hand than it would be to expect a special meal that would, say, exclude eggs but include everything else because that would require the airline to go into a level of individualisation that goes beyond its legal and commercial obligations alike.

Magyarok27

Thank you for the information Orbitmic & Nick....though my main issue, besides the treatment I received, was the complications and hassle associated with refunds.

To clarify a few points you noted in your response to me. Most airlines do require advanced notice, specifically with matters of oxygen for example. But regulations. also state that if you arrive at the gate at least 2 hours before (I believe)(I arrived almost 3) they are obligated by D.O.T. rules to make "every effort" in assistance. Once they noted it in their AF system it makes them obligated. Key words "assumed the obligation, by noting in their system."

The type of assistance is not limited to wheelchairs only. A blind person, that requires assistance through an airport for example, is not required to use a wheelchair because it might be more convenient for airport personnel. It is a violation of 14 CFR PART 382 under section 382.11(a)(2). I should not have been forced/obligated to accept special service that was not requested.

Also, I feel for you, when you had a broken elbow, and some person said well "don't carry any carry on". I mean really, are they trying to penalize the flyer for an accident? It's not like you asked for a stretcher! That was also a clear violation of D.O.T. rules under 14 CFR PART 382, section 382.91(d). Failure to provide assistance with a passenger's luggage.

What makes a different in these situations is the place of departure/arrival, from domestic to international and vise-versa etc. ATL to CDG to BUD...yes. BUD to CDG...no, but that falls under (EC) 1107/2006. CDG-ATL..yes it also falls on D.O.T. (CFR). I am aware of Saphir programme, though I am also aware this is why many individuals don't call ahead or indicate it at time of reservation, because of denied boarding and a whole string of issues the airlines have come up with in the past/present. Another thing is some passengers do not have noticeable disabilities, that does not mean they are not disabled. Airlines and airport security (example) are not allowed, from my understanding, to inquire about the nature of a disability. There are also special TSA cards provided to passengers. Yes, some cases do require doctor clearance. When I called initially back in February and spoke to one customer service agent, she said to me, she didn't see the big deal, airports have a ton of wheelchairs. I replied, I didn't ask for one, nor am I the person who makes it difficult for others who actually need it, to get one. I can walk just as quickly as the "agent, if not faster.

In any event, AF has already stated their actions were inconsistent with policy and training of their personnel; and agreed to a refund of my business class ticket and the return of my used award miles, which was back in March.

I'm upset because of all the problems and endless phone calls, etc. I had to make in order to receive my refund (supposedly in 3 weeks of the e-mail I got last month.) As a matter of fact, I got another e-mail this morning actually, saying they "tried" to call me, and then wanted to know my banking information to transfer the funds. If that happens?? Who knows, we'll see. I just don't understand why some airlines would rather pay D.O.T. fines of $27,500.00 per violation, instead of giving their flyers the refund, which is minimal in comparison? Mind boggling..

orbitmic

Indeed, nobody suggested otherwise (I even gave a list of other conditions that are indeed taken care of including blindness, deafness, mental disabilities, etc.) and you certainly don't have to accept assistance. The only question is really about (1) what is the exact obligation of the airline in terms of fine-tuning service and (2) for which part does it apply.

Actually, the DOT rules would only apply to the ATL-CDG (not CDG-BUD, nor, as you point out BUD-CDG) and CDG-ATL segments of your trip (382.7 b). As there is an inconsistency between the DOT rules and the EC regulations which would both apply to the said ATL-CDG-ATL flights, AF as a non-US airline had the possibility to apply for a waiver under 382.9 or make a claim that they provide equivalent service under 382.10, however I have absolutely no idea if they have or not! (PS: I did not know about the luggage rule which you pointed out to! To the extent that the trips in question included some trips to the US on DL, I wish I had known at the time! ^ )

On a separate note, I'm not entirely sure how AF plan to refund your DL miles. There may be a reciprocal agreement between AF-KL and DL to refund distribute each other's miles as ex gratia which would be good to know but I'm not aware of it, so if it does work out that way, can you please update us as it will be very useful knowledge! Many thanks in advance and hope for you that your refund will come soon.

NickB

With due respect, saying that the passenger is not entitled to assistance because he or she does not fall under one of the codes used by airlines is the tail wagging the dog. It would be akin to AF denying you Reg 261/2004 compensation because they have not designed a form to allow you to claim.
What is relevant here is how a PRM is defined in the legislation:
It seems to me plain that the OP does fall within that definition (note, in particular, the "temporary") and the definition also makes it clear that the service has to be adapted to the particular needs of the person rather than relying on a limited set of standard solutions. Yes, it is rational for airlines and airports to try to systematise the most common issues but that does not mean that the passenger has to fit within these and that, if they don't, their disability (whether permanent or temporary) cannot be accommodated.

I doubt that DOT rules apply within the territory of the EU. In any event, even if they purported to do so, they would simply clash with EU rules with regard to in-airport assistance since the EU rules specifically remove this responsibility from airlines to give it to airport authorities (the airlines are merely transmit the request for assistance).

You may also want to have a look at this thread on the BA board and the blog referenced in there. While the issue raised in the thread is different to yours, there are similarities in terms of deficiencies of assistance. The blog, in particular, is quite telling on the tendency of EU airports to expect you to fit within their understanding of what a PRM requires rather than addressing the specific needs of the person concerned.

Magyarok27

I just came across your post today, so putting in my 2 pennies worth. My suggestion, with my very recent issue with AF is not to give up! Even though my time is valuable to me, sometimes it's the principle that counts. So as unnecessary as it may seem to spend endless hours on the phone or e-mail, sometimes it's the only way things get done. The airline industry in my opinion is on a downward spiral in most areas; if the consumer has to be accountable for lack of knowledge, or not reading the fine print; which unless you're a legal expert can't understand anyway, then the corporation's need to be held accountable the same way. Most of the time, people just give up and not pursue the issue, and that is what, I'm pretty sure, the airlines are counting on. So decide what is really important to you and press the issue. Pain in the ***** I can assure you and not necessary, but it is, what it is. BTW...do a lot of research, sadly! :-(

Magyarok27

Thanks for the replies; regardless if I or we 100% agree, it is great to get different opinions on this matter. I personally appreciate different points of view, and interpretations.

Btw..Orbitmic,

On a separate note, I'm not entirely sure how AF plan to refund your DL miles. There may be a reciprocal agreement between AF-KL and DL to refund distribute each other's miles as ex gratia which would be good to know but I'm not aware of it, so if it does work out that way, can you please update us as it will be very useful knowledge! Many thanks in advance and hope for you that your refund will come soon.

The miles where already refunded to my Skymiles account when I checked about 2 weeks+ ago, it only said under "account activity" on my Delta iPad app., it was a customer care service recovery from AF/KLM to my account. The main acknowledgement came via e-mail, after quite a few phone calls and less then fair offers of compensation.

Otherwise: I agree there is a difference between EU and D.O.T. regulations. After reviewing the Montreal Convention and some various U.S. court cases, including ADA, and CFR. Another example is when the D.O.T. sides with you on a violation, they state in a letter "complainant would have to file a private legal action, to obtain a personal monetary settlement; BUT private right to action, is not allowed, from my understanding; at least not in regards to issues of "distress" (can't think of the proper word right now), due to some congressional legislation, it really leaves the consumer without any rights; except perhaps small claims court. I'm not a lawyer, but any means, so this is my understanding of what I read.

Interesting though, in regards to international verses domestic flights, it states flights "originating in the U.S.". On one end, the BUD-CDG, segment did fall under U.S. but E.U. regulations, but the the CDG-ATL did. I had assumed this was based on a RT ticket??

Nick..you mentioned hand baggage compared to standard luggage I assume. I do not see how one would apply and not the other, when both are entitlements based on the ticket purchased; so I see it once again as a penalty because of a permanent or temporary disability. We all know their are plenty of people out there that do take advantage of the "wheelchair" thing to get ahead of the line or something; and most of the time the airlines are limited in recourse. The way I view it, I did not make the law, but I sure have to abide by it. If the D.O.T. states it's against the Air Carrier Access Act (ACAA), 49 U.S.C. 41705, which the airlines, including foreign operators that land and depart from the U.S. agree to, then what can I say?

As I said before, I do not feel my necessary request was above and beyond reasonable, and if we take the class of service into account even more so; as with Orbitmic and his elbow. Is being told a wheelchair or nothing, reasonable? Is throwing one's handbags on the conveyor belt before the security check-point and expecting it to fly to the gate on it's own reasonable? Or saying sorry, you're out of luck, because you are traveling with a bad hand, arm or elbow and therefore asking for a little assistance is stretching the rules..YOU made?

Seriously, I believe it is only a matter of time before it becomes prescience in the courts and then a simple request by a passenger will be "chicken-feed" compared to the alternate..

Magyarok27

Btw..thanks for the BA link! :-)

NickB

No: AIUI, it is the origin of the flight itself, not of the whole ticket.
THus, on a JFK-CDG-JFK, it would cover the ountbound but not the inbound and on a CDG-JFK-CDG, it would cover the inbound but not the outbound.

You lost me there. I did not speak of hand or hold luggage specifically, just generally of assistance to passengers.
Again, in-airport assistance at EU airports is not a contractual issue since it is taken out of the hands of the airlines by the legislation and put in those of the airport.

Even if it does apply to foreign carriers, all it does is to prohibit discrimination by the carrier. There cannot be discrimination by the carrier when the acts or ommissions complained of are committed by and fall within the responsibility of the airport authorities rather than the air carrier.
Besides, unless I am mistaken, 14 C.F.R. Part 382 , which implements 49 U.S.C. § 41705, specifies that it does not apply to "foreign air carriers or to airport facilities outside the United States, its territories, possessions and commonwealths."

I agree with you. Where I depart from you here is whether that falls within the responsibility of the carrier. At CDG, it is ADP at fault here rather than AF. The problem, though, is that recovery from airport authorities is anything but straightforward.

Magyarok27

Thanks Nick...

Sorry if I misunderstood your comment about baggage. The whole ATL-CDG-BUD/BUD-CDG-ATL is where I get confused too! As for the fault, being airport/carrier, technically the lines seem to be blurred. On one side for CDG, Saphir is mentioned, on the other AF contradicts their own rules with stating airport is responsible, but you do not need to notify us by law in advance, via reservations. Then again, they mention a note from a physician (depending on type of injury/disability), while ADA, D.O.T., etc. regulations are different. I guess depending on the way you look at it, most would assume a "disability" issue is more significant then a "lost baggage" issue; but a higher value/lack there of, even by EU standards that is mentioned in the Montreal Convention, without equal compensation.

So good question as you mentioned, who is at fault?? Maybe it depends on who takes responsibility; almost like a flip of the coin perhaps?

Being retired military (Navy) and a safety officer for engineering, I can assure you S**T runs down hill. Rules and regulations are only as good as those that enforce them. If you deviate, or make exceptions for one, it better be in the policy; or you'll be required to make exceptions for all. Which will eventually be policy, kind of like a "loop-hole" with dumps. (not comparing the two, just an example). Fix it or accept it...

NickB

The way it works in the EU is that you do notify the airline (although this is optional rather than compulsory). The airline is then expected to transmit the request to the airport authorities for on-airport assistance. The carrier remains responsible for in-flight assistance but on-airport assistance is the airport's responsibility. The fact that you notify the airline does not mean that the airline takes responsibility for on-airport assistance.