Air France flight, diverted from BEY to AMM[, has landed at LCA]
Aug 16, 2012, 12:24 pm
#16
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Seems more like a reflection of the current sorry state of Syria ..., which probably required the use of an "honorable intermediary", who will remain unknown, as well as his commission and "representation" costs, to expedite payment. Of course, paying with the credit card reserved for the captain's use in such emergencies would obviate the need for the mediation of such a helpful agent ...
Last edited by JOUY31; Aug 16, 2012 at 12:40 pm
Aug 16, 2012, 12:27 pm
#17
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Given the situation on the ground in Syria, it really wouldn't surprise me.
Air France probably does not have a procedure in place for a plane arriving at a point it no longer serves. Depending on who the airport operator is, or the fuel supplier, then it is likely/possible that in Damascus these are entities with which Air France has no dealings with at all. (By this I mean that Air France may not do business with these companies at ANY airport, and therefore there is no current contract or relationship between them that could be used to grease the wheels of this unexpected transaction). Or it could just be that they merely wanted payment up front, which the Air France crew were not able to meet.
It does strike one as rather strange that a reputable company that should be good for the money is treated like that. Such stories typically only surface about carriers that are in trouble and where those expected to supply fuel can rightly worry that they would never subsequently see payment.
It could be true! It will be interesting to see if any more details become known. You say "pax and crew were asked to raise payment". Did they? There must be further details from this source of yours.
Air France probably does not have a procedure in place for a plane arriving at a point it no longer serves. Depending on who the airport operator is, or the fuel supplier, then it is likely/possible that in Damascus these are entities with which Air France has no dealings with at all. (By this I mean that Air France may not do business with these companies at ANY airport, and therefore there is no current contract or relationship between them that could be used to grease the wheels of this unexpected transaction). Or it could just be that they merely wanted payment up front, which the Air France crew were not able to meet.
It does strike one as rather strange that a reputable company that should be good for the money is treated like that. Such stories typically only surface about carriers that are in trouble and where those expected to supply fuel can rightly worry that they would never subsequently see payment.
It could be true! It will be interesting to see if any more details become known. You say "pax and crew were asked to raise payment". Did they? There must be further details from this source of yours.
I wonder what their filed alternate airport was, regarding the extra onboard fuel.
Aug 16, 2012, 12:51 pm
#18
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Quite common for AF - they tend to retime flights when they are delayed (planned delays). I've had a 1hr delay on BEY-CDG and everything was changed to the new flight time, including on boarding passes, e-ticket and CMT.
Aug 16, 2012, 2:42 pm
#19
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Air France flight, diverted from BEY to AMM[, has landed at LCA]
Talked to someone on board. Indeed the crew told pax that they might have to pitch in. But it then got resolved and AF paid.
Obviously there are procedures in place for diversions to places which are usually not served. There are many such airports in Russia (on the way to Japan), Greenland, Canada, China, etc. These airports are declared diversion airports go their ability to handle the plane type and to handle passengers (medically, accommodation, etc). They are regularly inspected by the airlines.
Also, what would you think happens in cargo flights? There's no pax that can chip in in case of deviation.
There is another detail that is possibly relevant: the French ambassador to Lebanon was on board. Maybe that led to the decision to divert given the troubles on the ground.
But it still doesn't explain why they didn't divert to Larnaca in the first place but chose Amman which only would have been reached by overflying Israel, something unlikely to be granted by ATC. And it doesn't explain the fuel situation. The flight approached Beirut at the scheduled time so it should have had enough fuel to reach a diversion airport. I cannot imagine that Damascus was the only designated diversion airport. If Amman was a designated diversion, there should have been enough fuel to reach it - unless Air France dispatch committed the gaffe I calculating Amman fuel based on a direct/over Israel route. Otherwise I would strongly assume that Larnaca was a designated diversion and enough fuel should have been in board.
Obviously there are procedures in place for diversions to places which are usually not served. There are many such airports in Russia (on the way to Japan), Greenland, Canada, China, etc. These airports are declared diversion airports go their ability to handle the plane type and to handle passengers (medically, accommodation, etc). They are regularly inspected by the airlines.
Also, what would you think happens in cargo flights? There's no pax that can chip in in case of deviation.
There is another detail that is possibly relevant: the French ambassador to Lebanon was on board. Maybe that led to the decision to divert given the troubles on the ground.
But it still doesn't explain why they didn't divert to Larnaca in the first place but chose Amman which only would have been reached by overflying Israel, something unlikely to be granted by ATC. And it doesn't explain the fuel situation. The flight approached Beirut at the scheduled time so it should have had enough fuel to reach a diversion airport. I cannot imagine that Damascus was the only designated diversion airport. If Amman was a designated diversion, there should have been enough fuel to reach it - unless Air France dispatch committed the gaffe I calculating Amman fuel based on a direct/over Israel route. Otherwise I would strongly assume that Larnaca was a designated diversion and enough fuel should have been in board.
Aug 16, 2012, 2:59 pm
#20
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Air France flight, diverted from BEY to AMM[, has landed at LCA]
BEY-AMM is about one hour. That could easily be done by using the holdingfuel alone. And then there is still another 45 min holding fuel and gas for the diversion airport and sometimes more for contingiency. Seems strange that there was a fuel issue.
(above is rough estimate based on standard aviation guidelines)
(above is rough estimate based on standard aviation guidelines)
Last edited by KLflyerRalph; Aug 16, 2012 at 3:07 pm
Aug 16, 2012, 6:26 pm
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.
Aug 16, 2012, 6:35 pm
#23
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Talked to someone on board. Indeed the crew told pax that they might have to pitch in. But it then got resolved and AF paid.
But it still doesn't explain why they didn't divert to Larnaca in the first place but chose Amman which only would have been reached by overflying Israel, something unlikely to be granted by ATC. And it doesn't explain the fuel situation. The flight approached Beirut at the scheduled time so it should have had enough fuel to reach a diversion airport. I cannot imagine that Damascus was the only designated diversion airport. If Amman was a designated diversion, there should have been enough fuel to reach it - unless Air France dispatch committed the gaffe I calculating Amman fuel based on a direct/over Israel route. Otherwise I would strongly assume that Larnaca was a designated diversion and enough fuel should have been in board.
But it still doesn't explain why they didn't divert to Larnaca in the first place but chose Amman which only would have been reached by overflying Israel, something unlikely to be granted by ATC. And it doesn't explain the fuel situation. The flight approached Beirut at the scheduled time so it should have had enough fuel to reach a diversion airport. I cannot imagine that Damascus was the only designated diversion airport. If Amman was a designated diversion, there should have been enough fuel to reach it - unless Air France dispatch committed the gaffe I calculating Amman fuel based on a direct/over Israel route. Otherwise I would strongly assume that Larnaca was a designated diversion and enough fuel should have been in board.
Surely there must be an international law that if low fuel is declared, Israel must permit overflight??
Then again,Israel is not exactly good in respecting international laws....
Aug 16, 2012, 11:04 pm
#24
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but big mess, certainly yes.
Aug 16, 2012, 11:51 pm
#25
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Originally Posted by Air France passengers 'asked to chip in for fuel' after Syrian diversion
"There were some negotiations going on to buy fuel because Air France doesn't fly to Damascus at the moment and so it doesn't have an account" with Damascus airport authorities, he [a passenger] explained.
...
According to an Air France employee who declined to be named, the crew at first offered to pay for the fuel in Damascus with a credit card but the transaction was impossible because of financial sanctions which have been slapped on Syria.
...
According to an Air France employee who declined to be named, the crew at first offered to pay for the fuel in Damascus with a credit card but the transaction was impossible because of financial sanctions which have been slapped on Syria.
Originally Posted by Air France asks passengers for refuel cash at Damascus stop
...Syrian authorities refused credit card payment to refuel the aircraft, the French airline said on Thursday
The L'Orient LeJour article (mentioned by BA6501) says that due to restrictions on Syrian airspace, the plane had to made a wide diversion, and hence couldn't reach AMM - but was eventually allowed to make an emergency landing in DAM. However, it seems slightly strange that the length of the diversion wasn't known in advance (and/or that TLV or LCA weren't available as options).
Hmmm. I thought it was standard practice (where possible) to start preparing selected passengers to assist the crew in an emergency landing, well before the said landing actually happens. So, this may just have been sensible contingency planning by the captain (so he had the option in case needed) rather than an expected outcome at any point.
Aug 16, 2012, 11:59 pm
#26
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But of course, an emergency is an emergency and when a plane needs to land somewhere unplanned, it will generally be allowed. And a flight in trouble will not just attempt to limp on to a more convenient airport, just because they may have such logistical issues after they land. The imperative is to get everyone on the ground safely. All other considerations should be ignored until that goal has been achieved.
But once you're on the ground, you need to think about what happens next. When you find yourself in an airport that was never "on the radar" (so to speak) as being a diversion airport, and an airport which your airline does not serve, then it's not the same situation as landing in an airport with which you already have dealings. Quite obviously, the issue of payment would be uppermost in the suppliers' minds in such an unexpected, unanticipated situation. Quite simply, they can't just bill as normal - because there is no "normal" when dealing with this one-off flight from an airline you don't have any business with.
Last edited by irishguy28; Aug 17, 2012 at 12:04 am
Aug 17, 2012, 12:38 am
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Air France flight, diverted from BEY to AMM[, has landed at LCA]
In any case, based in the information that there are, it seems a doubtful choice not to land in Beirut, a wrong choice not to use Larnaca as the diversion airport from the start, and a botch-up to have the type if fuel situation the flight found itself in.
But again, there may be elements of the story that are missing.
But again, there may be elements of the story that are missing.
Aug 17, 2012, 1:57 am
#28
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I still have NO IDEA why that flight decided to divert. It's not the first time that the road to/from the airport is blocked. It has happened many times before and I've never heard of any flights diverting because of that. Was this the captain's first time flying to Beirut? And has anyone heard of flights diverting from France because of recent riots in the country?
That road is periodically blocked (but then opened within a few hours) by people protesting everything from electricity cuts to high fuel prices. This most recent road block was to protest against the Lebanese government for not doing much in the case of 11 kidnapped Lebanese citizens in Syria. They've been held captive for the last 3 months and on that particular day, there was news that they were actually killed in some rocket attack on the house they were being kept in. As usual, roads were cleared a few hours after the protests had started.
Whoever took the decision to divert made a very bad call...
PS. I do not support such actions by the way. I just wanted to clarify the situation.
That road is periodically blocked (but then opened within a few hours) by people protesting everything from electricity cuts to high fuel prices. This most recent road block was to protest against the Lebanese government for not doing much in the case of 11 kidnapped Lebanese citizens in Syria. They've been held captive for the last 3 months and on that particular day, there was news that they were actually killed in some rocket attack on the house they were being kept in. As usual, roads were cleared a few hours after the protests had started.
Whoever took the decision to divert made a very bad call...
PS. I do not support such actions by the way. I just wanted to clarify the situation.
Last edited by BEYFlyer; Aug 17, 2012 at 2:08 am
Aug 17, 2012, 2:24 am
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A member of the company told that the crew offered to pay with a credit card, but it could not be used due to international sanctions on the Syrian regime. He did not specify the solution found to pay for kerosene.
Source: Le Nouvel Observateur
Source: Le Nouvel Observateur
Aug 17, 2012, 2:31 am
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"The situation has deteriorated rapidly during the approach phase in Beirut, which led the company to decide on a diversion to Amman which then appeared as the best solution," said the director of Air France permanently, Pierre Caussade.
"But the captain was unable to obtain air traffic control sector's authorization to proceed on a direct path to Amman. Ultimately, with the remaining fuel, the only airport possible was Damascus," added the spokesman for the air operations of the company.
Source: Le Nouvel Observateur
"But the captain was unable to obtain air traffic control sector's authorization to proceed on a direct path to Amman. Ultimately, with the remaining fuel, the only airport possible was Damascus," added the spokesman for the air operations of the company.
Source: Le Nouvel Observateur