jonmar

So I broke down and decided to take my wife and daughter to Sweden for Christmas to spend it with my in laws. Supposed to leave Toronto on December 21 on Air France. After boarding was delayed for an hour for a technical issue, we boarded and then sat on the plane for 3.5 hours before the flight was eventually canceled. The pilot advised it was a mechanical issue with the weather radar. They tried negotiating with Air Transat for a part but that failed. Anyhow, we got off the plane and were told we would be going the next night at 8 p.m. and that the bags would remain on board. We were put up in a hotel and told to be back by 6 p.m. the next day. We were told that rerouting was not possible since it had to be with AF, KLM, or Delta and that they had no other flights. Not wanting to lose 2 days of our holiday, I pushed a little harder was still told it was 'impossible'. The next morning I called Air France and asked again. When a three stop routing on alternate airlines was offered, I suggested a one stopper that got us to Stockholm 12 hours earlier than their suggestion, the person I was speaking with told me to take what he had offered or he would be ending the call. I asked for his supervisor and he hung up. I called back straight away and asked for a supervisor and asked if they had recorded my previous call. They had not. The supervisor again told it was not possible to reroute on a non Blue airline. I said that was not true since the guy that hung up on me offered me a three stopper that included AC and SAS. She capitulated and off we went on the itinerary I asked for. We arrived in Stockholm 18+ hours after we were originally scheduled to. Our baggage arrived 4 days late. I tried every day to reach customer care in from Sweden and failed each time. Their automated phone routing system always ended up with reservations instead of customer care when you pressed '4'. They always told me I pressed the wrong number. They also told me they could not transfer me to customer care or provide their direct number. When I asked what to do given the phone system not working, 'Debbie' told me 'I don't know'. She did put me on hold and called the number herself and confirmed it was not working though.

When we returned home I called customer care and was immediately offered a $250 flight voucher for each of us. I indicated that that seemed far below what the EU regulations required. I was told by Jahana that EU regs do not apply to flights leaving Toronto. I asked her if she was sure and whether she had read regulation 261/2004 and she said yes. I told her I was sure that the reg did apply since I was flying to the EU on an EU carrier. 'Wrong'. I said no thank you to the vouchers and hung up.

Called back yesterday hoping to get someone informed. Same result. 261/04 does not apply to flights leaving North America. By the way, Aisha was 110% sure on this. Again I was offered the vouchers. So, clearly they are being trained to provide incorrect information. Of course they will apologize and say the employee was simply misinformed. Which makes sense since the regulation has only been in force for 6 years! I asked to speak to a supervisor and was told she was a supervisor. I asked to speak to someone knowledgeable about the EU regulations and she told me there was no one I could speak with and to make a claim on line.

What is the best way to proceed? It seems Air France purposely tries to frustrate the process by A) providing wrong info (if one can get any info at all) and B) not letting you speak to anyone knowledgeable once you are on to them.

Thanks for any help.

KLflyerRalph

Unfortunately, AF's way of handling IRROPS' compensation is ****.
You can find more info in this thread where the OP was also denied compensation over and over. Unfortunately, he had no other solution than going to court.

You could call one of the designated NEBs (National Enforcement Bodies) who handle this sort of problems but I don't know how it works for non-EU citizens.

On the leaflet about pax' rights is a number you can also try if AF won't budge: (32-2) 299 98 96 (normal charges apply from outside EU).

If you're still inside the EU, PM me for the European (tollfree) number.

No experience with said organisations but they might help.

I'm sorry you're in this situation, you're entirely in your right and AF is utter crap with compensation. One wonders why the EU keeps accepting these denials.

jonmar

Do you think it would be inappropriate to submit the claim online and indicate I fully expect them to try to screw me around and that my story will hit facebook, twitter and youtube the moment they try it? I'm just not interested in a 12 month battle over something that is as clear as 'the sky is blue'. It is such an advantage to them that the masses do not know what they are doing.

KLflyerRalph

I'd first try an online claim. Usually the social media team is very helpful but if you just roughly start complaining in a offensive way they just delete your posts and do nothing.
If the online claim doesn't work either, write a brief but powerful and nice letter firmly explaining that you know you're entirely in your right and that they should know it and should pay the compensation.

cityflyer369

I think any approach in written form is better than calling the call center. Even if the call center staff were knowing about the EU regulations, I doubt they would be entitled to decide on compensation. I have never heard of AFKL handling any compensation claim solely via phone.

dunderhead

Send your request for compensation to Fabien Pelous, VP & GM for AF/KL in Canada



If no response, send a second missive indicating that you are giving 14 days and then you will be filing in Small Claims Court. Airlines rarely, if ever, show up...therefore you get a judgment by default...and wait until 2 days prior to Christmas to enforce it with a seizure at the airport. Take cash, not a cheque...they can't stop payment on cash.

jonmar

Is that his correct email extension? Doesn't .fr indicate an email in France?

dunderhead

All AF email addresses are .fr

JOUY31

Please do not post names or e-mail of specific staff.

http://www.flyertalk.com/help/rules.php#q69

Jouy31
AF/KL co-moderator

Often1

OP - Don't do silly things like this. None of them suceed and all you do is have your claim denied. If you want to vent, that's fine. If you want compensation, your request ought to be no more than three short sentences (because who said what on the phone has nothing to do with whether or not you are entitled to compensation). You should also cite the specific EU rule, pointing to the specific applicability to your fact pattern (generalizations get lost in the haze).

Threats never get anywhere and lengthy complaints just don't get read. Best to stick to what you know.

jonmar

I just received an email from Air France baggage indicating that since SAS was our final carrier, we have to send our claim for necessity reimbursement to them. Is this correct? SAS had nothing to do with the problem. It was all Air France.

JOUY31

It is indeed correct. It is always up to the final carrier to take care of these claims by passengers.

brunos

+1^

jonmar

I have just received a response from Air France/Delta. Here it is:

Thank you for your patience as we reviewed the details of Air France
Flight 351 on December 21, 2011 to Paris. We appreciate the opportunity
to address your request for compensation under European Union
regulations.

First, I am truly sorry for the inconvenience you and your family were
caused due to this flight irregularity delaying your arrival in
Stockholm by one day. We know travelers need an airline they can count
on, and I recognize how upsetting it is when plans are disrupted. Our
information shows that as a result of this delay you and your family
were re-booked Air Canada and Scandinavian Airlines so as to not further
delay your family's arrival into Stockholm.

Your travel falls under the guidelines of European Union Regulation (EC)
261/2004 which define an airline's requirements when flight
irregularities occur. When a flight is cancelled, passengers should be
confirmed on the next available flight. Depending on the length of a
passenger's delay, airlines are required to provide care and assistance
as follows.

- Meals and refreshments
- Hotel accommodations if a passenger is forced to remain overnight
- Transportation to and from the accommodations
- Two communications in the form of telephone calls, fax messages, or
emails

Although Delta and Air France make every effort to avoid such
situations, Air France Flight 351 was cancelled due to technical reasons
involving the navigation system on the aircraft. We assure you that all
reasonable maintenance measures were taken prior to each departure as
the safety of our passengers and crew members must remain our number one
priority. Since the flight could not operate without repair, the part
to repair the system had to be flown in from Paris. The aircraft was
repaired and the flight operated as Air France Flight 4095 with the same
aircraft on December 22, 2011.

Because Air France Flight 351 operates daily, the flight number had to
be changed because we cannot operate the same flight number twice within
the same 24 hour period. We are of the opinion that Article 6 of EC
261/2004 does not determine there is a right to compensation in this
case. Therefore, we must respectfully decline your request for
compensation under this regulation.
As a sincere gesture of apology for your family's inconvenience, I have
issued three Electronic Transportation Credit Vouchers (eTCVs) in the
amount of $250.00 each. Please note the voucher numbers and associated
Terms and Conditions will be arriving in a separate email within 24
hours. I encourage you to add Delta Air Lines to your receiver list so
the voucher document is not misdirected to your spam folder. Please
keep the voucher numbers and the Terms and Conditions since the numbers
are required for redemption. It is also important to remind you that
there is no Direct Ticketing fee for reservations confirmed online at
delta.com.

I want to thank you, again, for taking the time to write. Your future
business is important to us. We hope you will continue to choose Delta
and KLM for your future air travel needs.

Sincerely,

Allen Warner
Coordinator, Corporate Customer Care
Delta Air Lines


In any case, it sounds like they are treating it as a delay and not a cancellation. He does indicate the flight was canceled but believes the section dealing with delays covers our circumstances. Any suggestions on how to proceed now?

jonmar

Here is the latest:

Thank you for your multiple replies dated January 24 and 25 in which you
request a further review of your claim for compensation under the
guidelines of European Union Regulation (EC) 261/2004 concerning Air
France Flight 351 on December 21, 2011. Again, I apologize for the
inconvenience you and your family experienced.

Please allow me to clarify my remarks regarding Air France Flight 351.
I did indicate in my previous reply that AF 351 was canceled, which was
the flight number only. The actual aircraft for this flight did operate
on December 22 with flight number 4095 after the aircraft was repaired.
Air France officially classifies this as an extended delay even though
the flight number changed. Due to technical limitations we cannot
operate two flights with the same flight number within the same 24 hour
period as AF 351 operates daily. Therefore, our reference to Article 6
of EC 261/2004 is correct based on the official status of this flight.

Further, in the opinion of Delta and Air France, indeed a technical
problem cannot, by definition, be considered as an ?extraordinary
circumstance.? However, a specific problem, that is encountered
unexpectedly, which presents itself beyond our scope of influence and is
a threat to flight safety, can nevertheless be regarded as such, even
when it concerns a problem of a technical nature. We have, once again,
thoroughly reviewed your claim and have taken into account all involved
details of this specific flight irregularity. As a result, we must
respectfully decline your request for compensation.

Again, I apologize. Your support is important to us, and I thank you
for your additional time and effort. We look forward to the privilege
of serving your air travel needs again soon.

Sincerely,

Allen Warner
Coordinator, Corporate Customer Care
Delta Air Lines


And here is my response:

Thank you for your reply. Again, my concern remain the same. I will repeat that from the outset, I wanted someone with knowledge of EU regulation 261/04 to assess my claim. This means someone trained and informed on the current state of the law as it relates to this regulation. The reasons you use to deny my claim are outdated and have been addressed by the courts many times since this legislation was introduced seven years ago. Only a fertile imagination could characterize Flight 351 as a delay when the Captain of Air France flight 351 classified the flight as canceled, Pearson International Airport classified the flight as canceled and flight tracking software classified the flight as canceled. For some reason, that same imagination believes this provides Air France/Delta relief from compensation claims. If you had read the court decision I directed you to, you would know that the financial windfall you had hoped to manufacture does not exist. This is why I told you that your clinging to Article 6 was incorrect. The fact you haven't read the case simply increases my level of frustration. Further, you suggest that Air France/Delta experience some 'specific' problems that are unexpected and beyond their influence while suggesting that the other 'technical' problems are expected and can be avoided, but still occur. Regardless, you seem to believe that this case is somehow elevated to 'extraordinary'. Again, the courts have dealt with airlines attempting to evade compensation claims this way.

Why is it that Customer Care agents have not been kept current with updates relating to the EU regulations? Is it possible that this leads to a significant number of denied claims that had merit?
It is apparent to me based on the outdated reasons used, as well as the overall experience dealing with Air France/Delta, that the process is designed to frustrate passengers to the point of giving up. This is truly a simple claim. Air France/Delta is making it difficult by supplying uninformed personnel to assess these claims. Please provide me with the contact information of someone who has been kept current on state of the law relating to EU regulation 261/04. The favor of an immediate reply is appreciated.
Thank you,

He went ahead and emailed me vouchers the other day even though I specifically had told them not to and that I would not accept them as compensation. In any case, I have tried to do it their way and achieved nothing. I guess I will have to think of a different way to get their attention.