jonmar

Is this post meant to bait me into saying something that you don't like so you can call me rude and pretend to be offended?

jonmar

I didn't mean that the regulation was absurd but rather the interpretation. If the interpretation renders outstation flights immune from cancellation, that interpretation would frustrate the intent of the regulation. You have however, pointed out a scenario that would potentially lead to an outstation cancellation. I am prepared to bet that Air France would still deem it a long delay

NickB

You are making (imo, unwarranted) assumptions about the intentions behind the legislation.
I have no reason to believe the latter to be the case.

hsk

Not at all man. The 'show's over' was in poor taste - sorry - but I dont understand what exactly it is you want AF to do.

Shona

Sturgeon isn’t quite the limit on commentary delivered by the ECJ so far on the subject of cancellation and delay.

There is some further commentary from the ECJ ( subsequent to Sturgeon) in the Sousa Rodriguez preliminary ruling on the subject of cancellation and delay.

One argument available to you as an individual (in outline) might be that "your" flight was cancelled and you don’t care what became of the aircraft due to perform "the flight" after you had been offered ( reluctantly) a re-routing. "The" flight can still operate as a delayed flight-but "your" flight was cancelled.

Whether this argument ( as perhaps developed further) is passenger-delivered pixie dust or something more substantial would need to be adjudged by some competent arbitrator.

irishguy28

Two points about the above:

1) the OP wasn't "offered" a re-routing. Instead, the OP chased up/demanded a re-routing, and after several knockbacks was indeed re-routed.

2) the "my flight" versus "the flight" argument probably wouldn't have much effect.

Shona

The trouble with this in my view is that we ( air passengers) would always need to keep asking you what you meant by "arbitrary" and "can't be helped".

In any event, after a while, you would probably decide that having to answer these questions in specific case circumstances was rather burdensome and wasn’t really your job.

irishguy28

It's not presently my job, either. I presume that by "you" you mean, respectively, the airline, the National Enforcement Body, and eventually perhaps, a court in a jurisdiction covered by the EU regulation.

jonmar

I want them to provide the 1800 Euro that the regulation stipulates. In the end, we lost a day of our Christmas vacation with my wife's family. We missed a family function because of it.

As far as I can tell, the only part of the regulation they followed was a hotel voucher. I don't count the eventual rerouting since it was denied, forcefully several times. It was just short of me having to jump the desk, commandeer the computer and rebook myself. To me, this falls short of 'offered'. At the airport, if you mentioned 261/04 they played dumb or outright advised it didn't apply, just as customer care did upon our return.

Air France wasted over 4 hours in which they could have rerouted passengers the night of the flight. Boarding was delayed an hour due to a technical issue with the aircraft. They negotiated with a competitor for the wrong part and then cancelled the flight.

While not part of the regulation, the fact they would not refund the extra baggage fee paid for a bag that arrived 4 days late containing my daughter's Christmas gifts provides a pretty clear picture that even in a clear case, they can't get it right.

This just scratches the surface. My problem is with a company that takes your money with a smile and then when things go wrong they treat you like total dog sierra hotel india tango, all in relative secrecy from the ticket buying public. Flight vouchers and a generic apology hoping to earn my business in the future falls short. They ignore the regulation pretty much in full, and they get away with it, because they tell passengers it does not apply and no one enforces it. We'll never know how many people would have accepted a refund or a rerouting because Air France never offered anyone the choice.

I know a number of people think 'oh well, its part of life, get over it'. That's fine. I am not trying to convince you to feel how I feel.

irishguy28

It sucks that your daughter's Christmas presents didn't arrive until after Christmas.

Air France should have refunded you any extra baggage fees charged - seeing as you didn't travel with Air France.

jonmar

Even worse, we called the night before coming home asking if they could waive the extra baggage fee given what had happened. The person indicated she would note our file for check in. When we arrived at the airport, we were told 'I see the note, but it doesn't specifically say free'. We had to pay the extra baggage fee. I asked if we could at least pay the online price which is 20% less and was told no.

Magyarok27

I hope I'm replying in the right place; my first time using FlyerTalk. Anyway I was doing a google search and came across the name you mentioned in your post and Air France. Funny enough (or sadly), I received an e-mail reply from the very same person who said I was going to receive a refund on my business class ticket fare and upgrade miles refunded to my account. Mind you this e-mail was dated on March 28, 2014 and said "in approximately three weeks."

I called Air France/KLM/Delta yesterday, and after (wait for it) nearly 3 hours of hold, disconnect, transfers, etc., got nowhere
; and all I wanted to do was check on the status of my refund. After my "problems" on an AF flight in December and February (RT), I filed a complaint with them and the D.O.T. AF admitted their fault and the D.O.T., agreed; I haven't contacted EU, yet.

Needless to say, it has been nothing short of endless hours on the phone and the runaround. I'm so frustrated and wondering what to do now? Especially since all I asked them for was a ticket refund and an apology! Any thoughts? Oh and this isn't even about baggage but disability, etc., violations....

orbitmic

Hello again, it still does not make sense to me, and you should not post the exact same post in two different threads on flyertalk. Even if the one you choose is not the best, people will try their best to help or our outstanding team of moderators will move it to the right place but duplicating your post does not help.