Another CBC article : granddaughter forced to sit in her own pee
Jun 19, 2017, 2:21 pm
#46
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: YYC
Programs: AC Basic, UA MP Gold, Marriott Gold Elite, SPG Gold, Amex Platinum
Posts: 3,008
Facts gleaned from the Air Pax Rights CA Facebook page:
- return flight was YHZ-YYC AC1689 rouge service on May 30th. Flight departed on time and arrived 17 minutes early.
- On both the CBC article and on Facebook, there have been no response from the complainant as to why there was no attempt to go to the back Y cabin lav or engage in the economy FAs.
- The complainant and the kid made 3 trips to the front cabin, the 2 no problem trips occurred before drink cart service was initiated.
- Another pax from the Y cabin attempted to use the J cabin lav. He too was denied access and told to go use the back lav.
- the complainant and pax were seated in row 4 of the rouge A319.
- Grandma booked her ticket through Expedia. The kids ticket was booked on separate ticket on the phone with AC. There was a time lapse between booking the two tickets as grandma made the decision to have her granddaughter accompany her after intially booking the ticket.
- Grandma paid for seat selection in row 4, the kid's seat selection was free.
Grandma is very definitely closer in age to 45 than 60, so although the correct terminology is Grandma and Grand-daughter, this does not imply that Grandma was old.
One last point, the Grandma has responded on Facebook this was the first or near first attempt at the kid going without a "nappy" for long car trips or overnight. Previously the kid used a diaper/nappy when she was on long trips without facilities being constantly available.
I lack empathy for Grandma's situation because there appears to be no attempt to engage the Y cabin FA's to move the cart. This has me thinking that there were other factors at play than just an immediate needs of the kid.
My own experience includes:
- Air travel with a 2, 3, and 4 year old kid (my daughter).
- Potty training said daughter.
- Arguing with the Wife about the daughter's potty training and life experiences.
- second hand experience from close friends and relatives who were going through the same experiences as me.
My first hand experience taught me the request/demand from the child to go potty must be dealt with as a Defcon 1 event while the kid is learning to listen to their bodies signals. However, after a few months the kid needs to learn their body language to understand they must inform the adult 3-5 minutes before requiring to go potty.
Parents/caregivers are under a bit of pressure once the initial potty training is successful. If the parent treats every potty request as a defcon 1 event the child learns very quickly this is the best method to get attention. My niece quickly discovered the best way to get her parents attention away from my younger nephew was to blurt out "I need to go pee". This occurred every 20 minutes.
The trip to Glace Bay NS probably would have involved a very early am departure from YYC assuming the pax traveled on the same routing outbound as inbound. AC 1690 leaves YYC at 7:25am. The kid probably slept most of the outbound flight. It is also possible the kid was all ready in a diaper from the night before (child not yet potty trained).
The return YHZ-YYC flight is a mid afternoon 15:55 departure. Excited toddlers are very hard to get calmed down. If the toddler is awake and full of energy, they will not play along with quiet time and will get angry if told to "play along".
The following is pure speculation on my part, but having gone through this stage in parenthood, is entirely plausible.
Seat belt sign gets turned off and Grandma says to kid "do you have to go potty"? Kid is bored and going potty means activity and excitement, so let's go.
Kid walks to the front lav but does not have to pee. Along the way the kid takes every attempt at distraction. With the bathroom door open Grandma attempts to get to go pee but there is no production. Key point, the 20 something FA overhears the conversation.
20 minutes after the kid has returned to their seat they are bored again. Well the first potty trip was exciting so lets wash rinse and repeat.
On the third unproductive trip to the bathroom, the 20 something FA loses patience and has no sympathy for the Grandma because the FA has never been in a similar situation. Couple of minutes later the kid soils herself.
End of speculation.
I'm also unsympathetic towards the Grandma because I have dealt with numerous females (wife, mother, mother-in-law, friends) whose attitude of entitlement at being the caregiver to a young child prevents them from seeing the reality of the situation. These over entitled caregivers get angry when the world does not adjust to their demands. No matter how reasonable an alternate course of action (e.g. ask the back end FAs to move their cart) they want the world to bend to their every demand.
- return flight was YHZ-YYC AC1689 rouge service on May 30th. Flight departed on time and arrived 17 minutes early.
- On both the CBC article and on Facebook, there have been no response from the complainant as to why there was no attempt to go to the back Y cabin lav or engage in the economy FAs.
- The complainant and the kid made 3 trips to the front cabin, the 2 no problem trips occurred before drink cart service was initiated.
- Another pax from the Y cabin attempted to use the J cabin lav. He too was denied access and told to go use the back lav.
- the complainant and pax were seated in row 4 of the rouge A319.
- Grandma booked her ticket through Expedia. The kids ticket was booked on separate ticket on the phone with AC. There was a time lapse between booking the two tickets as grandma made the decision to have her granddaughter accompany her after intially booking the ticket.
- Grandma paid for seat selection in row 4, the kid's seat selection was free.
Grandma is very definitely closer in age to 45 than 60, so although the correct terminology is Grandma and Grand-daughter, this does not imply that Grandma was old.
One last point, the Grandma has responded on Facebook this was the first or near first attempt at the kid going without a "nappy" for long car trips or overnight. Previously the kid used a diaper/nappy when she was on long trips without facilities being constantly available.
My own experience includes:
- Air travel with a 2, 3, and 4 year old kid (my daughter).
- Potty training said daughter.
- Arguing with the Wife about the daughter's potty training and life experiences.
- second hand experience from close friends and relatives who were going through the same experiences as me.
My first hand experience taught me the request/demand from the child to go potty must be dealt with as a Defcon 1 event while the kid is learning to listen to their bodies signals. However, after a few months the kid needs to learn their body language to understand they must inform the adult 3-5 minutes before requiring to go potty.
Parents/caregivers are under a bit of pressure once the initial potty training is successful. If the parent treats every potty request as a defcon 1 event the child learns very quickly this is the best method to get attention. My niece quickly discovered the best way to get her parents attention away from my younger nephew was to blurt out "I need to go pee". This occurred every 20 minutes.
The trip to Glace Bay NS probably would have involved a very early am departure from YYC assuming the pax traveled on the same routing outbound as inbound. AC 1690 leaves YYC at 7:25am. The kid probably slept most of the outbound flight. It is also possible the kid was all ready in a diaper from the night before (child not yet potty trained).
The return YHZ-YYC flight is a mid afternoon 15:55 departure. Excited toddlers are very hard to get calmed down. If the toddler is awake and full of energy, they will not play along with quiet time and will get angry if told to "play along".
The following is pure speculation on my part, but having gone through this stage in parenthood, is entirely plausible.
Seat belt sign gets turned off and Grandma says to kid "do you have to go potty"? Kid is bored and going potty means activity and excitement, so let's go.
Kid walks to the front lav but does not have to pee. Along the way the kid takes every attempt at distraction. With the bathroom door open Grandma attempts to get to go pee but there is no production. Key point, the 20 something FA overhears the conversation.
20 minutes after the kid has returned to their seat they are bored again. Well the first potty trip was exciting so lets wash rinse and repeat.
On the third unproductive trip to the bathroom, the 20 something FA loses patience and has no sympathy for the Grandma because the FA has never been in a similar situation. Couple of minutes later the kid soils herself.
End of speculation.
I'm also unsympathetic towards the Grandma because I have dealt with numerous females (wife, mother, mother-in-law, friends) whose attitude of entitlement at being the caregiver to a young child prevents them from seeing the reality of the situation. These over entitled caregivers get angry when the world does not adjust to their demands. No matter how reasonable an alternate course of action (e.g. ask the back end FAs to move their cart) they want the world to bend to their every demand.
Jun 19, 2017, 2:27 pm
#47
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: トロント
Programs: IHG Gold
Posts: 4,820
We are concentrating on the washroom issue because, after all, this is Flyertalk.
But, if this story was discussed in a parenting forum, specifically one dealing with toddlers and young children, I would suggest grandma would be in for some significant criticism. Cross country flight with a 2 year old, and no change of clothes, no spare pull ups, no plan apparently for those little accidents children of that age are known to have.
I seem to recall travelling with a fairly well stocked "just in case" bag on trips like that in our younger years.
And, if there was an issue, we certainly did not run to the national broadcasters shamefully putting our face and the child's name out there for all to see.
Jun 19, 2017, 2:28 pm
#48
Join Date: Apr 2017
Programs: AA, DL, Avis, Enterprise, National, IHG, HH, SPG/MR
Posts: 1,852
What power trip? The passenger didn't even ask if the FAs would be willing to move the cart. Stop trying to make this out to be something it wasn't.
Jun 19, 2017, 2:31 pm
#49
Join Date: Apr 2017
Programs: AA, DL, Avis, Enterprise, National, IHG, HH, SPG/MR
Posts: 1,852
Having one's employer pony up for premium cabin seating brings out the Victorian in some people to an extent that would embarrass Charles Dickens.
Also reminiscent of Raymond Chandler's "...the sort of people that disillusion you about what a lot of golfing money can do for the personality .."
Also reminiscent of Raymond Chandler's "...the sort of people that disillusion you about what a lot of golfing money can do for the personality .."
Jun 19, 2017, 2:32 pm
#50
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: YYZ
Programs: TK *G
Posts: 3,099
I feel bad for the child, and I somewhat feel bad for the FA involved. The FA only did them a favor to let them use the J lav, as an exception. After this incident I doubt this FA will be "nice" and bend the J lav access rule again.
Jun 19, 2017, 2:34 pm
#51
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2014
Programs: AC SE100K-1MM, NH, DL, AA, BA, Global Entry/Nexus, APEC..
Posts: 18,877
@WR Cage
I love your post, the detailed descriptions and thought processes. Thanks.
And if you wander over to the actual article on the CBC site, you'll find many of those who posted comments agree with you.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...says-1.4166122
Mentioned upthread as well.
Bad enough grandma felt it necessary to whine to the CBC, but idiotic of her, IMHO, to have a photo of the little girl posted. Even if the grandmother was clueless about media exposure, the CBC reporter should have known better. There was no reason to show the child's face unless the purpose was to elicit sympathy for both of them in grandma's quest for an apology and perhaps compensation.
I love your post, the detailed descriptions and thought processes. Thanks.
...But, if this story was discussed in a parenting forum, specifically one dealing with toddlers and young children, I would suggest grandma would be in for some significant criticism. Cross country flight with a 2 year old, and no change of clothes, no spare pull ups, no plan apparently for those little accidents children of that age are known to have.
......
......
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...says-1.4166122
Bad enough grandma felt it necessary to whine to the CBC, but idiotic of her, IMHO, to have a photo of the little girl posted. Even if the grandmother was clueless about media exposure, the CBC reporter should have known better. There was no reason to show the child's face unless the purpose was to elicit sympathy for both of them in grandma's quest for an apology and perhaps compensation.
Jun 19, 2017, 2:50 pm
#52
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: May 2002
Location: YEG
Programs: HH Silver
Posts: 56,446
Jun 19, 2017, 2:55 pm
#53
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2017
Programs: AC
Posts: 2,167
IMHO, AC should just stick to the rules, 100% of the time. It's called 'managing expectations'.
Jun 19, 2017, 3:05 pm
#54
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: YYC
Programs: AC Basic, UA MP Gold, Marriott Gold Elite, SPG Gold, Amex Platinum
Posts: 3,008
That said, the biggest thing the pax wants is for the front cabin FA to be reprimanded and or issue a personal apology over the incident.
The complainants focus on the front cabin FA is causing me to speculate (above) there are other related issues between Grandma and the FA. Afterall, the Grandma could have laid blame of the economy cabin FAs who did not move the cart or the booking agent who put the pax in the front economy cabin rather than the back end.
Jun 19, 2017, 3:07 pm
#56
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: YYZ
Programs: A3&O6 Gold,IC AMB & HH Diamond
Posts: 14,132
AC has offered a $200 voucher and an apology from Customer Solutions. Problem is the Grandma will not be flying in the next year so cannot use a discount or voucher. Hence the request for a refund as its the only way to get dollars instead of paper the complainant will not use.
That said, the biggest thing the pax wants is for the front cabin FA to be reprimanded and or issue a personal apology over the incident.
The complainants focus on the front cabin FA is causing me to speculate (above) there are other related issues between Grandma and the FA. Afterall, the Grandma could have laid blame of the economy cabin FAs who did not move the cart or the booking agent who put the pax in the front economy cabin rather than the back end.
That said, the biggest thing the pax wants is for the front cabin FA to be reprimanded and or issue a personal apology over the incident.
The complainants focus on the front cabin FA is causing me to speculate (above) there are other related issues between Grandma and the FA. Afterall, the Grandma could have laid blame of the economy cabin FAs who did not move the cart or the booking agent who put the pax in the front economy cabin rather than the back end.
They don't realize or are not trained that people are people and that you need to treat everyone with respect & kindness.
Jun 19, 2017, 3:09 pm
#57
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2014
Programs: AC SE100K-1MM, NH, DL, AA, BA, Global Entry/Nexus, APEC..
Posts: 18,877
And just a quick reminder, the posts on the CBC are not exactly sympathetic to grandma:
Chris Van Ihinger
Pity that the Air Canada flight attendant did not have the presence of mind to allow the grandmother to escort the child to the elitist washroom.
More's the pity that the grandmother didn't have the forethought to fit the child with toddler nappys."
Mary MacDonald
The solution is simple enough. Put a diaper on the child and have an extra one handy. Stop blaming Air Canada for your failure to plan this trip.
Stephen Dunbar-Edge
Poor planning, I hope they used it as a teaching moment, for entitled Grandma too.
Chris Van Ihinger
Pity that the Air Canada flight attendant did not have the presence of mind to allow the grandmother to escort the child to the elitist washroom.
More's the pity that the grandmother didn't have the forethought to fit the child with toddler nappys."
Mary MacDonald
The solution is simple enough. Put a diaper on the child and have an extra one handy. Stop blaming Air Canada for your failure to plan this trip.
Stephen Dunbar-Edge
Poor planning, I hope they used it as a teaching moment, for entitled Grandma too.
Jun 19, 2017, 3:17 pm
#58
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: YYC
Posts: 495
But, if this story was discussed in a parenting forum, specifically one dealing with toddlers and young children, I would suggest grandma would be in for some significant criticism. Cross country flight with a 2 year old, and no change of clothes, no spare pull ups, no plan apparently for those little accidents children of that age are known to have.
But I'm also not thrilled with FA's alleged behaviour. Toddler needs to go. Do you REALLY want to obstruct that? Did you think that through?? What's the desired outcome here?
And travel agent... good grief. Knew enough that proximity to lav is a good thing, and then puts them in proximity to the wrong lav???
Everyone's done something wrong here.
Jun 19, 2017, 3:18 pm
#59
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,393
The premium cabin customers deserve respect and kindness too, not a constant stream of toddlers walking back and forth through the premium cabin.
Jun 19, 2017, 3:19 pm
#60
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: YYC
Programs: AC Basic, UA MP Gold, Marriott Gold Elite, SPG Gold, Amex Platinum
Posts: 3,008
@WR Cage
I love your post, the detailed descriptions and thought processes. Thanks.
......
Bad enough grandma felt it necessary to whine to the CBC, but idiotic of her, IMHO, to have a photo of the little girl posted. Even if the grandmother was clueless about media exposure, the CBC reporter should have known better. There was no reason to show the child's face unless the purpose was to elicit sympathy for both of them in grandma's quest for an apology and perhaps compensation.
I love your post, the detailed descriptions and thought processes. Thanks.
......
Bad enough grandma felt it necessary to whine to the CBC, but idiotic of her, IMHO, to have a photo of the little girl posted. Even if the grandmother was clueless about media exposure, the CBC reporter should have known better. There was no reason to show the child's face unless the purpose was to elicit sympathy for both of them in grandma's quest for an apology and perhaps compensation.
The worst the child will suffer is that she will be able to tell about the time she took her first airplane trip, peed her pants, and got on national TV.
Also, the CBC does not have enough resources to keep pictures and video forever. I have tried to research stories more than 5 years old an discovered that pictures have been removed and/or the story no longer available. Facebook and other social media are the only places where the 10 year old past comes out to haunt the picture subject.