Air Canada Fleet Changes
Aug 16, 2015, 3:51 pm
#16
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I'll be the first to admit, I was wrong.
When AC first introduced rouge, I said give it three years and it will go broke, just like Zip and Tango did.
Well, I was wrong.
I did not anticipate they would embark on a plan to convert the entire mainline to rouge, but that is apparently the plan. Looking forward, it seems only a matter of time till most, if not all domestic service is rouged, and the only mainline left will be TPACs on 777 HDs and some high-dollar 787 routes.
I gave AC more credit than that, but Calin and crew have proved me wrong.
When AC first introduced rouge, I said give it three years and it will go broke, just like Zip and Tango did.
Well, I was wrong.
I did not anticipate they would embark on a plan to convert the entire mainline to rouge, but that is apparently the plan. Looking forward, it seems only a matter of time till most, if not all domestic service is rouged, and the only mainline left will be TPACs on 777 HDs and some high-dollar 787 routes.
I gave AC more credit than that, but Calin and crew have proved me wrong.
When AC converts its 777's to 10 across seats with 30" seat pitch they will also be Rouge.
Reality AC has just become a airline with 2 names but both with Rouge quality.
Aug 16, 2015, 11:47 pm
#17
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Arn't the 777HDs 31" pitch?
Aug 16, 2015, 11:58 pm
#18
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Aug 17, 2015, 12:03 am
#19
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Sorry, but your fav. airline UA is going 10 across on their new 777,. So are they Rouge too? Basically, Boeing is selling the 777 as a 10 across aircraft now. Also, why do you always write about Rouge without ever flying Rouge?
Aug 17, 2015, 6:07 am
#20
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Symmetre
Interesting post.
Not long after AC converted YVR/YYC - LAX/SFO to rouge, I had a bit of a bet with a couple of FTers (and similar conversations with AC employees who asked my opinion).
IMHO, The ultimate goal is to be "almost LH". Translation: Lufthansa is the brand for all international and a couple of domestic routes, germanwings does the rest. Clearly LH had a bit more luck with equipment and deployment. But I also think they had a clear strategy from the beginning.
LH is well aware that few routes will generate the revenue they need to keep high-end cabins available, and as we are seeing, F is being eliminated on a number of routes.
AC is not LH, not in terms of size or global coverage.
AC had a bit of a challenge last year when launching rouge as the 788s were late from Boeing and AC had to lease aircraft to cover the summer European etc routes for which they had already sold seats. It was messy.
Since then, AC has has also been "rouge-ing" routes which many thought were not "leisure", but which we now all understand were not generating the yield despite not being typical sun or vacation destinations. Should parts of the Canadian economy move downward, AC may obviously want to make more changes to routings and aircraft deployment.
In addition, there have been reductions to the J cabin on AC mainline narrow bodies and we all know some of the 77s are going in for refurb/refresh. Obviously it makes sense for AC to have a consistent-size J cabin on narrow-bodies should there be an equipment swap. And, in order to effectively sell the Premium Economy cabin, AC needs more equipment with availability.
MY opinion late last year was that AC had always intended to deploy a version of what LH did - leave the Air Canada brand as the international carrier plus a couple of key routes (maybe YUL/YYZ - LAX/SFO for e.g.), and move the entire rest of the domestic and transborder routes to rouge.
As people have posted here on FT have noted, and as those of us who have flown on some domestic routes have seen, along with the devaluation of the Altitude program, the J cabins are not full on many routes and many fliers won't pay for J. Sure, some pax have been lucky and now get to use their precious upgrades on those routes. However, the fact remains, if AC cannot monetize the J cabin on a route, then why have a J cabin on that route?
I am not an AC hater and everyone here knows that. I fly Air Canada and I fly other carriers when it works for me.
Like many others, I am more annoyed by what I see as preventable and fixable issues: the poor quality of aircraft cleanliness, the inconsistent meal quality and repetitive and/or limited choices, the mayhem with the red tags and the inconsistent and poor deployment of zone boarding, and the sheer annoyance that is Aeroplan (which for now, AC is tethered to).
I would have much preferred that Air Canada management and marketing people be clear upfront with their intentions. Perhaps the secrecy is a throwback from the old days. But the promises that routes would not be rouged with the ultimate changes made, did appear to be a bit odd.
The AC fleet is being modernized and upgraded. rouge will continue to exist as long as people are willing to pay more to fly direct to the destinations is serves.
This is my opinion. You are certainly welcome to disagree. Thanks.
.
Interesting post.
Not long after AC converted YVR/YYC - LAX/SFO to rouge, I had a bit of a bet with a couple of FTers (and similar conversations with AC employees who asked my opinion).
IMHO, The ultimate goal is to be "almost LH". Translation: Lufthansa is the brand for all international and a couple of domestic routes, germanwings does the rest. Clearly LH had a bit more luck with equipment and deployment. But I also think they had a clear strategy from the beginning.
LH is well aware that few routes will generate the revenue they need to keep high-end cabins available, and as we are seeing, F is being eliminated on a number of routes.
AC is not LH, not in terms of size or global coverage.
AC had a bit of a challenge last year when launching rouge as the 788s were late from Boeing and AC had to lease aircraft to cover the summer European etc routes for which they had already sold seats. It was messy.
Since then, AC has has also been "rouge-ing" routes which many thought were not "leisure", but which we now all understand were not generating the yield despite not being typical sun or vacation destinations. Should parts of the Canadian economy move downward, AC may obviously want to make more changes to routings and aircraft deployment.
In addition, there have been reductions to the J cabin on AC mainline narrow bodies and we all know some of the 77s are going in for refurb/refresh. Obviously it makes sense for AC to have a consistent-size J cabin on narrow-bodies should there be an equipment swap. And, in order to effectively sell the Premium Economy cabin, AC needs more equipment with availability.
MY opinion late last year was that AC had always intended to deploy a version of what LH did - leave the Air Canada brand as the international carrier plus a couple of key routes (maybe YUL/YYZ - LAX/SFO for e.g.), and move the entire rest of the domestic and transborder routes to rouge.
As people have posted here on FT have noted, and as those of us who have flown on some domestic routes have seen, along with the devaluation of the Altitude program, the J cabins are not full on many routes and many fliers won't pay for J. Sure, some pax have been lucky and now get to use their precious upgrades on those routes. However, the fact remains, if AC cannot monetize the J cabin on a route, then why have a J cabin on that route?
I am not an AC hater and everyone here knows that. I fly Air Canada and I fly other carriers when it works for me.
Like many others, I am more annoyed by what I see as preventable and fixable issues: the poor quality of aircraft cleanliness, the inconsistent meal quality and repetitive and/or limited choices, the mayhem with the red tags and the inconsistent and poor deployment of zone boarding, and the sheer annoyance that is Aeroplan (which for now, AC is tethered to).
I would have much preferred that Air Canada management and marketing people be clear upfront with their intentions. Perhaps the secrecy is a throwback from the old days. But the promises that routes would not be rouged with the ultimate changes made, did appear to be a bit odd.
The AC fleet is being modernized and upgraded. rouge will continue to exist as long as people are willing to pay more to fly direct to the destinations is serves.
This is my opinion. You are certainly welcome to disagree. Thanks.
.
There is nothing wrong with offering a Ryanair product. 10 across seating? fine. 30-inch pitch? Sure. Surly staff? Okay. But it's one thing to offer all of that when you also offer Ryanair pricing. You get what you pay for, and we all realize that.
The difficulty I have in supporting AC is when they increasingly offer a Ryanair product, yet continue to charge a premium for it. That is particularly true for those sucked into chasing status and who pay extra for Flex fares.
Add consistently inconsistent service and downright surly GAs and FAs ... it's no wonder increasing numbers of people wonder why they even bother.
Aug 17, 2015, 6:59 am
#21
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As people have posted here on FT have noted, and as those of us who have flown on some domestic routes have seen, along with the devaluation of the Altitude program, the J cabins are not full on many routes and many fliers won't pay for J. Sure, some pax have been lucky and now get to use their precious upgrades on those routes. However, the fact remains, if AC cannot monetize the J cabin on a route, then why have a J cabin on that route?
I need to fly BOS-YVR in a few weeks.
UA J starts at C650 all-in, one connection. Those flights with "more reasonable" departure times start at about C$850 all-in.
AC J starts at C$1,200 all-in, one connection.
On the day that I need to fly, AC Flex with early/mid afternoon YVR arrival starts at C$700 all in. No Tango available.
One can fly J on UA for about the same price as AC Flex. Spend an extra C$150 for a "better" departure time. You also don't have the anxiety of being caught up in CBSA, baggage, etc. at YYZ or YUL. You clear CBSA at YVR.
Similar situation for YYZ-HKG in late November/early December.
CX J starts at C$5,300 all-in, direct non-stop.
AC J starts at C$8,250 all-in, direct non-stop but would drop to C$5,200 if one does not mind to connect via YVR and flies the horrible 777HD and arriving YYZ at 1:59am on the return. As a non-status, one would never be able to get those single seats. They are blocked off. The small $100~$150 fare difference is not enough to entice me to go from a non-stop direct to a connecting itinerary.
Last edited by Clipper801; Aug 17, 2015 at 11:05 am
Aug 17, 2015, 8:14 am
#22
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I'll be the first to admit, I was wrong.
I did not anticipate they would embark on a plan to convert the entire mainline to rouge, but that is apparently the plan. Looking forward, it seems only a matter of time till most, if not all domestic service is rouged, and the only mainline left will be TPACs on 777 HDs and some high-dollar 787 routes.
I did not anticipate they would embark on a plan to convert the entire mainline to rouge, but that is apparently the plan. Looking forward, it seems only a matter of time till most, if not all domestic service is rouged, and the only mainline left will be TPACs on 777 HDs and some high-dollar 787 routes.
Aug 18, 2015, 3:02 pm
#23
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I guess a better question is why do you think Mainline is different that Rouge?
Aug 18, 2015, 5:38 pm
#25
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Aug 18, 2015, 5:39 pm
#26
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Many still fly J but AC's fares are simply uncompetitive. They have booked another airline.
I need to fly BOS-YVR in a few weeks.
UA J starts at C650 all-in, one connection. Those flights with "more reasonable" departure times start at about C$850 all-in.
AC J starts at C$1,200 all-in, one connection.
On the day that I need to fly, AC Flex with early/mid afternoon YVR arrival starts at C$700 all in. No Tango available.
One can fly J on UA for about the same price as AC Flex. Spend an extra C$150 for a "better" departure time. You also don't have the anxiety of being caught up in CBSA, baggage, etc. at YYZ or YUL. You clear CBSA at YVR.
Similar situation for YYZ-HKG in late November/early December.
CX J starts at C$5,300 all-in, direct non-stop.
AC J starts at C$8,250 all-in, direct non-stop but would drop to C$5,200 if one does not mind to connect via YVR and flies the horrible 777HD and arriving YYZ at 1:59am on the return. As a non-status, one would never be able to get those single seats. They are blocked off. The small $100~$150 fare difference is not enough to entice me to go from a non-stop direct to a connecting itinerary.
I need to fly BOS-YVR in a few weeks.
UA J starts at C650 all-in, one connection. Those flights with "more reasonable" departure times start at about C$850 all-in.
AC J starts at C$1,200 all-in, one connection.
On the day that I need to fly, AC Flex with early/mid afternoon YVR arrival starts at C$700 all in. No Tango available.
One can fly J on UA for about the same price as AC Flex. Spend an extra C$150 for a "better" departure time. You also don't have the anxiety of being caught up in CBSA, baggage, etc. at YYZ or YUL. You clear CBSA at YVR.
Similar situation for YYZ-HKG in late November/early December.
CX J starts at C$5,300 all-in, direct non-stop.
AC J starts at C$8,250 all-in, direct non-stop but would drop to C$5,200 if one does not mind to connect via YVR and flies the horrible 777HD and arriving YYZ at 1:59am on the return. As a non-status, one would never be able to get those single seats. They are blocked off. The small $100~$150 fare difference is not enough to entice me to go from a non-stop direct to a connecting itinerary.
Your examples of lower fares on other carriers has been noted by many others across a number of threads.
It was NOT my point in my post nor in the segment of my post you chose to quote.
It was not about lower prices elsewhere. It was about how, as a result of a number of conditions, there are perhaps more empty J seats on AC flights (at least from what I have seen on the non YYZ-YVR routes).
If AC cannot find a way to monetize those seats, my opinion is that there will be little need for them and therefore, another reason why I think most of AC's North American routes will be moved to rouge, sooner or later.
I DO NOT mind if I am wrong, as I am only one opinion among many.
Aug 18, 2015, 6:00 pm
#27
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If AC cannot find a way to monetize those seats, my opinion is that there will be little need for them and therefore, another reason why I think most of AC's North American routes will be moved to rouge, sooner or later.
I DO NOT mind if I am wrong, as I am only one opinion among many.
I DO NOT mind if I am wrong, as I am only one opinion among many.
They can always remove J seats from the aircraft. For example, UA has their 319s configured as 8J, AC has mainline at 14J. But AC also has rouge at 12J. The rouge 321s (which are "new" planes, not conversions from mainline) coming online soon will be at 16J vs 14J at mainline. Clearly they must see some value in the J seats physically being there?
Aug 18, 2015, 7:02 pm
#28
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Just speaking hypothetically for a moment, how would you propose they do that though with a 50 aircraft maximum at rouge, and with all aircraft already busy operating other routes? The 50 aircraft cap is in the pilot contract and with a 10 year deal reached, I don't see AC having any sort of appetite in reopening that.
They can always remove J seats from the aircraft. For example, UA has their 319s configured as 8J, AC has mainline at 14J. But AC also has rouge at 12J. The rouge 321s (which are "new" planes, not conversions from mainline) coming online soon will be at 16J vs 14J at mainline. Clearly they must see some value in the J seats physically being there?
They can always remove J seats from the aircraft. For example, UA has their 319s configured as 8J, AC has mainline at 14J. But AC also has rouge at 12J. The rouge 321s (which are "new" planes, not conversions from mainline) coming online soon will be at 16J vs 14J at mainline. Clearly they must see some value in the J seats physically being there?
You might want to review my original post to see my entire opinion.
I wrote about the overall strategy and tactical deployment (how AC launched rouge, how they made changes to rouges after the launch, how those changes were explained).
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/25279563-post14.html
Other funny thing, in the other thread, there was an interview and this quote was interesting:
"When we first launched Rouge, we had a high-density model that included a European-style business class, branded as Premium Rouge, with three-by-three [seating]. That wasn’t really that well received, and we heard a lot from our corporate travelers and super-elites who fly into some destinations. The Rouge product was launched for us to compete with the WestJets and Allegiants of the world,...”
I leave you to interpret.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-c...es-growth.html
Aug 18, 2015, 8:02 pm
#29
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AC has decided if you want more space you pay for it. What's wrong with that if its competitors are doing the same?
Aug 18, 2015, 8:07 pm
#30
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If you flown both airlines you would know. Again, why write about a Rouge if you have never flown Rouge?