superangrypenguin

**Prior to starting off this thread, please note. This is NOT me bashing AC (in fact many of you would call me an apologist, although perhaps less so since the Altitude changes). This is my attempt to start a discussion, nothing more. I am jet lagged to all end writing this post from HKG after a brutal 20 hour end to end transit time from YYZ. The entire day I have spent comparing two airlines. BR and AC.

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Ok, disclaimer now over. I very rarely fly on non AC metal, especially since hitting adulthood. As a child/teen/infant I've flown on over 20 airlines around the world, but my experiences there have obviously changed and I didn't know any better. Someone once flamed me in a thread and went "have you flown on non AC metal?", and a part of me went...well, not recently.

So today (or yesterday or sometime, I've lost all track of time), I flew BR from YYZ to TPE to HKG in J. My gosh. Any North American airline can't even begin to compete with them. The hard product (ok well the 787 on AC has basically the same seat) and the soft product. When I checked in, there must have been 4 people just to guide people into the right lane - then a guy employed to talk to me as I waited for an agent. The check in process was efficient with a super friendly agent. I was over in all of my carry on weight limits and explained that "wow, that's a whole lot less than AC" (all my elite tags were AC tags). She said not a worry, enjoy your flight. No hassle no fees.

Then I get to the contract lounge (PP), ok fine, small lounge decent food. Drink, drink drink. Then I get on the airplane. Wow, I get led to my seat by a FA and they are willing to put my bag up for me. The service was incredible. I, being asian, and my wife being Caucasian, they make good guesses at language of choice. They speak to me in Mandarin, I then reply in English (I can speak Mandarin, but not my language of choice), and then they promptly "assign" me a FA (the same one attached to my wife). All however know me by name and apologize if they can't speak English and to wait a moment. No language barriers. They know my wife's name too - and don't need to look at a sheet. They memorize it.

Throughout the entire flight, (flight leaves at 130am), there are FA's who go up and down the cabin making sure that once a pax wakes up, they have food. They tuck my wife in (no joke), and are SUPER friendly - I mean - when I write Ben S an email thanking a FA on being awesome (they are all like that on BR!). Look, I'm not here to knock AC's FA, i'm simply saying that in general, I have seen some amazing people at AC, but they are few and far between (which BY THE WAY, I'd still much rather take a AC FA over any other N. American airline). The dealings I have with AC staff are very professional. The dealings I had with BR FA's are borderline..."personal". I genuinely feel that they care about me and want me to be happy. That was (and still is) a REALLY weird experience - awesome though. Best part? Flight departs at 1:30 with perfect OTP. Hot meals served by 2:30am. Yes, that includes the 30 minutes to taxi/climb. How the hell do they serve hot meals that quickly? Truly impressed.

Most notable moment? I was in J with the wife on the upper deck on the 747. I had 3 FA's just for us (we were the only passengers). The chief purser introduces herself and walks up and thanks me and my wife for flying with them. Reason? *G. (I asked her after the fact). I suspect an empty J cabin might have something to do with it though too, lol. But wow, I have never ever had 1 single FA thank me for flying on AC (FA's). (or any other airline to be fair). I truly appreciated it. It's even better than those times when a SPG check in person would say "thank you for your loyalty". Faux and homey. Fomey. But it works.

So here's my question. What would it take to get AC to become the next BR? Being the next CX and SQ would be nice, but baby steps. - please try to be realistic. Saying you want to fire everyone isn't a realistic thing...

ALSO - Cleanliness of airplanes!! My gosh I was SOOOO taken aback today on the 777ER. I could have licked the pods and picked up no diseases. I thought that was cool, until I got on a VERY old 747-400 Combi from TPE to HKG. Even that old plane - s*it, I was so blown away by how clean it is. I literally have remorse using a towel wipe to wipe down the 777 as I boarded it (on the YYZ to TPE portion - and out of habit of wiping down pods in J on AC). Every airline wants to turn around airplanes and every airline wants their planes to be flying, but why is it that AC planes are dirty (I dare you, lick an AC pod, let me know when you're dead and/or have itchy spots on your bits). I guess the same goes with N. American airlines in general. - why are airplanes in N. America so dirty compared to their asian counterparts?

**Again, disclaimer, not knocking anyone. I simply have been...enlightened going, hell i'll give up as many eupgrades as you want AC, if you can actually deliver on your promise to be an airline like BR. (not quite a CX or SQ, but i'd be a very proud Canadian if AC achieves what it said it is trying to do)

//jetlag rant post over. Losing my mind. Hell, have lost my mind. Have no idea how you FF's do this 13 hour time zone thing with 20 hours of it being on planes. #noobPenguin

acysb87

Interesting observations.

Mrs.acysb87 and I did fly BR early this month from YYZ to TPE and connected BKK on TG.

What you experienced is very similar to our own experience. Did you get your PJs ? S/M/L Sizes in dark brown with beige trim for men and beige with brown trim for women, IIRC.
I asked for champagne. Service on this was delayed. In charge came to me and apologized as the temperature of the champagne was too warm and needed to be chilled ^. "Holy Mackinaw"
Not a single announcement after the takeoff comments until half hour before TPE. 13 hours of uninterrupted flight , even through turbulence. Light/ding came on but that was it.
Washroom cleanliness was something else, Amazing. Mrs.acysb87 went to use one and was re-directed as pax had just exited lavatory and staff was going in first to clean up.^ Larger lavs with flowers that were fresh.
BIG pillows, nice blankets, and customized size slippers.

Like you OP, I was totally impressed , Mrs.acysb87 more so. Washroom cleanliness is her #1 reason for choosing a carrier (mine is seat size/comfort) on long haul flights. BR definitely has a huge lead here

We also flew SQ (J) on a couple legs, one being DPS/SIN. Christmas wreaths between J cabin interior windows added such a nice touch.^

AC was return flight from HND/YYZ.(had booked as a 787 initially and ended up on a 777) While the service was typical AC, I was really paying attention this time to the differences as well. We used 4 carriers on this visit to SE Asia I would rate the J service/experience in order of best to worst:
BR(1)SQ(2)AC(3)and TG(4)

BR/SQ were very close in our opinion, BTW

Just home, still getting over the jet lag. My son and his wife flying BR tomorrow in J from TPE/SEA. Will try to get his opinion

Stranger

BK? You mean BR presumably?

Last year, my wife broke her leg in Taiwan. We flew back in business class on BR through Vancouver. FAs were extremely helpful. Brought the little wheelchair whenever she needed to go to the toilet.

While SQ cabin crews come across as some sort of across breed between chicken and robots, BR crews appear more personable and educated, while providing an equally careful and transparent level of service.

The one minor downside is food, with both quantity and quality a notch below what I expected. Quality still quite above AC. No argument about wines, which are much superior.

This said, it would appear that while AC is making their J class more exclusive and less of an upgrade wagon, they also intend to make it worth the price paidfor a full J fare. I suspect we will see some improvement.

This said, we need to go to Taiwan again in April, for a wedding. We are already booked on BR, with confirmed Aerplan ticket for her, confirmed upgrades for myself. Then from TPE to CDG also on BR. Latter on the 777. Former unfortunately on the 747. But stillwe didnot find it too bad last year so...

BTW it would appear that AC is not terribly happy with BR competition. I could not get a ticket YYC-YVR on AC followed by BR to TPE either from AC or BR. Only from a TA.

Bonaventure

I just flew BR HKG-TPE-YYZ in J and found service surprisingly poor and inconsistent for the usual BR offering. That being said, it was still better service than 80% of my AC TPAC/TATL J flights. If BR on a bad day > AC on most good days.... !!!

The only two things I dislike about BR J are the seats are angled into the windows, instead of away, making looking outside a little more difficult than AC's seats and that BR's food offerings are not impressive in the slightest, probably AC-level.

acysb87

[QUOTE=Stranger;23913655]BK? You mean BR presumably?...

You are correct. oops ,kind of like Aerplan?

As an FYI,every one of the 6 flights had empty J seats on it. TG and AC ,by far, had the most empty seats.

PLeblond

Thanks for posting my frosted friend

I have mentioned it on other threads that hoping AC can match the level of service of the top Asian carriers (and the ME ones) is unreasonable. You used the words 'Culture Change' and you are very correct, especially that culture is very regional, and it is not within North American or European Culture to offer this type of service. The service industry in many Asian countries still harks back to a caste system. I cited in another thread (apologies for being repetitive) chatting with an SD on NZ about his past experience with EK. As a young man, he liked the adventure, but remarked that in certain cultures, a FA is considered a servant and often treated that way.

In addition, the cost of labour is a major issue. I don't know if anyone eles has noticed, but in Hotels is Asia, the staff to guest ratio is much better than NA/Euro. Yes, there are exceptions, bit take a Hilton here and a Hilton there and look at how many doormen, bell hops check in attendants, cleaning staff, etc. there are versus a similar sized Hilton in NA. It costs very little to hire more staff in emerging countries. Working rules and conditions are very different and of course, if you don't like the job, there are a few dozen who would love to have it. In order for NA/Euro airlines to offer that level of service, it would require (my personal estimate) 50% more staff then they currently employ. Labour being the second biggest expense for an airline, you can imagine what these additional costs would entail.

I don't expect AC to to offer that level of service. I don't think it reasonable feasible to do so. On a related note, I don't want that level of service neither. Although I enjoyed it and was amazed by it (ANA/SQ are the ones I have recently sampled) it did make me a little uncomfortable. Personally, I prefer a more relaxed and jovial service...but that's just me.

Again, not wanting to repeat myself, I though NZ is a good target for AC. I particularly enjoyed the SDs personally coming around to everyone in J, thanking them for flying NZ. One of them referenced a conversation I had with a FA as to my reason for my trip. That speaks to great communication between the crew. NZ is also a former Crown Corporation and similarly unionized so it is feasible to attain.

ACYYZ/SD

You captured my thoughts in this post. I have travelled a couple of times on NZ, most notably on their inaugural flight YVR-AKL (in J and on points no less). They remain one of my most memorable flight experiences, and provide a level of warmth and quality that I've tried to mirror in my own performance on board. Much of what you've described on NZ, I experienced on my last flight cycle working alongside my "dream crew", knowing that a level of Customer satisfaction was achieved (in both J & Y), that ensured happy guests and guaranteed repeat business.

You've described every reason why we will not and cannot replicate Asian carriers (work rules, crew complement & staffing and the basic cultural differences). There is no reason that we cannot continue to focus on quality and improve the overall customer experience. I think using NZ as a benchmark - an airline which showcases its country and its culture is a great inspiration while maintaining our own individuality.

rankourabu

Exactly.
AC will never play at the big boy table with the likes of EK,SQ, or even TK or BR etc. And noone should expect them to.

Winning the loser table should be a very achievable goal however.
AC offers a very decent mediocre product, and should have no problem beating the likes of UA, AA or even LH.


Angry feet, glad you finally saw the light on how things should be done.
I recommend a trip on EK or QR next.

maradori

I definitely agree with PLeblond; culture definitely plays a big role in affecting a crew and airline's service.

I know that Taiwan has cultivated a reputation of providing very warm (air-quotes "熱情" ) hospitality.

I've personally never experienced it but I'm not sure whether that is a function of me not being white, me being ugly, or me being in Taipei.

Taken in contrast with North American service culture which is ... um ... pretty much nonexistent. Self-serve kiosks, unionized workers, do-it-yourself baggage tagging, do-it-yourself-on-your-smartphone-app, etc.

PLeblond

I am sorry you see it in this light. I don't see it as winner/loser, but more an expression of our culture and ideals.

I am not sure what exactly you meant by saying "how things should be done". I would appreciate you elaborating. My initial comments referred to a caste system and hinted at people's attitudes towards flight crews as being servants, and I would certainly hope you do not partake in that attitude, although it is your right to do so.

The Lev

Oh come now yea of little faith, we've been assured that with the latest changes to Altitude AC with finally be unshackled and able to soon consistently offer this level of soft product.

rankourabu

Noone said anything about servants. Was referring to Angry Feet's comment: "I genuinely feel that they care about me and want me to be happy" Its about mutual respect, and not treating pax as a nuisance like AC crews still sometimes do.


Brilliant sir, brilliant

PLeblond

Thank you for the clarification.

Baley

Glad you got the opportunity and can see the difference. Like night and day.

The customer is always treated with respect and courtesy.

Unfortunately, NA airlines will never approach the level of service of any of the Asian airlines for a myriad of reasons. Just hold your nose and get through the flight and relish the opportunity to fly these Asian airlines when the opportunity presents itself.

bingocallerb22

Well, you could try LAN in SA as well and report back. Your experiences in your post could be almost replicated. Lots of staff, respect, cleanliness, greetings, help with baggage, great food and wine, tucking you in with duvet, and thank you by name for elites by the FD. Some differences, but sure sounds similar to what I experience regularly.