Changing AC culture
Nov 29, 2014, 5:55 pm
#46
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Nov 29, 2014, 6:01 pm
#47
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Nov 29, 2014, 6:53 pm
#48
Join Date: Feb 2006
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On a related note, I don't want that level of service neither. Although I enjoyed it and was amazed by it (ANA/SQ are the ones I have recently sampled) it did make me a little uncomfortable. Personally, I prefer a more relaxed and jovial service...but that's just me.
Again, not wanting to repeat myself, I though NZ is a good target for AC. .
Again, not wanting to repeat myself, I though NZ is a good target for AC. .
NZ (for me) has just the right balance of service and style, without the "I'm being waited on by a servant" feeling that I am uncomfortable with.
Nov 29, 2014, 11:02 pm
#49
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,130
Surprised to see that good old orientalist revisionism is alive and well ("slaves", "caste system"). Thought it went the way of the dodo in the 19th century, but I guess it still has its fans. While it may hold true for uneducated manual labor and construction, it's a bit of a stretch to apply it to airlines. Ever spoken to an FA from some of these 'slave' airlines? They often have degrees and at least a high school diplomas. They're typically middle class folk, and would balk at the notion of being called 'slaves' or 'servants'. But I suppose their willingness to go the extra mile and provide service levels not seen at AC is a good enough reason to insult them and attribute their performance to detrimental societal forces, rather than to their desire to do their job well.
The simpler explanation is that some cultures put more emphasis on hospitality than on privacy. It's the same reason a Foreign stranger walking into an Indian village is more likely to get an invitation to join the inhabitants - even those of less than modest means - for a cup of tea in their hut, than he is in a British village. This isn't illustrative of a 'better' or 'worse' way; it simply reflects cultural differences.
The real difference between the airlines is that some have a 'can do' culture that encourages going the extra mile, while others tend to have a narrower focus that emphasizes doing only what one is paid to do (typically on the back of management-labor disputes). I've had great FAs on AC, but I've also had FAs who, after spilling water on pax, think it's alright to not apologize, choosing to dismiss it instead by saying "it's just water. It will dry up". That kind of approach doesn't fly on many airlines. I expect FAs to treat me with at least as much courtesy as I treat them with, but it's been hit or miss with all NA carriers, including AC. I tend to see it as a morale problem.
As for cleanliness, that costs money. I wouldn't hold my breath.
The simpler explanation is that some cultures put more emphasis on hospitality than on privacy. It's the same reason a Foreign stranger walking into an Indian village is more likely to get an invitation to join the inhabitants - even those of less than modest means - for a cup of tea in their hut, than he is in a British village. This isn't illustrative of a 'better' or 'worse' way; it simply reflects cultural differences.
The real difference between the airlines is that some have a 'can do' culture that encourages going the extra mile, while others tend to have a narrower focus that emphasizes doing only what one is paid to do (typically on the back of management-labor disputes). I've had great FAs on AC, but I've also had FAs who, after spilling water on pax, think it's alright to not apologize, choosing to dismiss it instead by saying "it's just water. It will dry up". That kind of approach doesn't fly on many airlines. I expect FAs to treat me with at least as much courtesy as I treat them with, but it's been hit or miss with all NA carriers, including AC. I tend to see it as a morale problem.
As for cleanliness, that costs money. I wouldn't hold my breath.
Nov 30, 2014, 12:03 am
#50
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Surprised to see that good old orientalist revisionism is alive and well ("slaves", "caste system"). Thought it went the way of the dodo in the 19th century, but I guess it still has its fans. While it may hold true for uneducated manual labor and construction, it's a bit of a stretch to apply it to airlines. Ever spoken to an FA from some of these 'slave' airlines? They often have degrees and at least a high school diplomas. They're typically middle class folk, and would balk at the notion of being called 'slaves' or 'servants'. But I suppose their willingness to go the extra mile and provide service levels not seen at AC is a good enough reason to insult them and attribute their performance to detrimental societal forces, rather than to their desire to do their job well.
The simpler explanation is that some cultures put more emphasis on hospitality than on privacy. It's the same reason a Foreign stranger walking into an Indian village is more likely to get an invitation to join the inhabitants - even those of less than modest means - for a cup of tea in their hut, than he is in a British village. This isn't illustrative of a 'better' or 'worse' way; it simply reflects cultural differences.
The real difference between the airlines is that some have a 'can do' culture that encourages going the extra mile, while others tend to have a narrower focus that emphasizes doing only what one is paid to do (typically on the back of management-labor disputes). I've had great FAs on AC, but I've also had FAs who, after spilling water on pax, think it's alright to not apologize, choosing to dismiss it instead by saying "it's just water. It will dry up". That kind of approach doesn't fly on many airlines. I expect FAs to treat me with at least as much courtesy as I treat them with, but it's been hit or miss with all NA carriers, including AC. I tend to see it as a morale problem.
As for cleanliness, that costs money. I wouldn't hold my breath.
The simpler explanation is that some cultures put more emphasis on hospitality than on privacy. It's the same reason a Foreign stranger walking into an Indian village is more likely to get an invitation to join the inhabitants - even those of less than modest means - for a cup of tea in their hut, than he is in a British village. This isn't illustrative of a 'better' or 'worse' way; it simply reflects cultural differences.
The real difference between the airlines is that some have a 'can do' culture that encourages going the extra mile, while others tend to have a narrower focus that emphasizes doing only what one is paid to do (typically on the back of management-labor disputes). I've had great FAs on AC, but I've also had FAs who, after spilling water on pax, think it's alright to not apologize, choosing to dismiss it instead by saying "it's just water. It will dry up". That kind of approach doesn't fly on many airlines. I expect FAs to treat me with at least as much courtesy as I treat them with, but it's been hit or miss with all NA carriers, including AC. I tend to see it as a morale problem.
As for cleanliness, that costs money. I wouldn't hold my breath.
Nov 30, 2014, 1:38 am
#51
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: YEG
Programs: AC SE100K, AS MVPGOLD75K
Posts: 21
Customer Service should not be so difficult
Good service has nothing to do with the is not missing from NA culture - it is missing from AC Culture.
Aside from the VERY occasional employee there is a complete lack and even a disdain for providing basic customer service. Morale must be terrible, it appears as if 99% of employees hate their jobs and it is apparent no one has any empowerment to do anything or make any decisions, let alone take responsibility or ownership of anything. I can't even count how many times I have been told "I am just doing what the computer says", "I have to do what the computer says" and my favourite, "I don't know why, that is what the computer says".
I have sat on flights with coffee grounds at my feet because "cleaners are supposed to take care of that, I have nothing to do with it " I have had water spilled on my computer and myself with a shrug in response - not even a napkin, I have waited 40 hours for bags lost on a 45 min flight from YYC-YEG and then they show up at 3:00am in some dude's mini-van, I have been hung up on multiple times, I even had my Rolex stolen from the YVR domestic lounge (my fault for washing my face in bathroom with my watch off close beside me - but not close enough) and when I asked for assistance with security I got a "sorry you'll have to call yourself" - although they did write my name down on a piece of scrap paper "just in case" That's something I suppose. I am constantly asked "are you with him" when I am in the priority line by myself, you know - I could go on, the point is, it just isn't a priority to deliver beyond the bare minimum, or often to even be courteous, and it likely never will be.
United, AA and Delta may be as impolite but, at least the upgrades are automatic.
I am going to speak with my money, I have discovered Alaska Airlines, and they did a status match to MVPGOLD75k - wow what a different world! YEG is underserved by AC anyway, and the stopover in Seattle is well worth the change in environment. Friendly, helpful, courteous, polite, happy and empowered. AC may have newer metal now, the only category they are ahead in, but that won't last forever.
Not to mention the upgrades and the complimentary same day flight changes done via an APP that works whoohooo
Goodbye SuperElite - Hello Alaska with your happy people and wine and beer that taste good
Aside from the VERY occasional employee there is a complete lack and even a disdain for providing basic customer service. Morale must be terrible, it appears as if 99% of employees hate their jobs and it is apparent no one has any empowerment to do anything or make any decisions, let alone take responsibility or ownership of anything. I can't even count how many times I have been told "I am just doing what the computer says", "I have to do what the computer says" and my favourite, "I don't know why, that is what the computer says".
I have sat on flights with coffee grounds at my feet because "cleaners are supposed to take care of that, I have nothing to do with it " I have had water spilled on my computer and myself with a shrug in response - not even a napkin, I have waited 40 hours for bags lost on a 45 min flight from YYC-YEG and then they show up at 3:00am in some dude's mini-van, I have been hung up on multiple times, I even had my Rolex stolen from the YVR domestic lounge (my fault for washing my face in bathroom with my watch off close beside me - but not close enough) and when I asked for assistance with security I got a "sorry you'll have to call yourself" - although they did write my name down on a piece of scrap paper "just in case" That's something I suppose. I am constantly asked "are you with him" when I am in the priority line by myself, you know - I could go on, the point is, it just isn't a priority to deliver beyond the bare minimum, or often to even be courteous, and it likely never will be.
United, AA and Delta may be as impolite but, at least the upgrades are automatic.
I am going to speak with my money, I have discovered Alaska Airlines, and they did a status match to MVPGOLD75k - wow what a different world! YEG is underserved by AC anyway, and the stopover in Seattle is well worth the change in environment. Friendly, helpful, courteous, polite, happy and empowered. AC may have newer metal now, the only category they are ahead in, but that won't last forever.
Not to mention the upgrades and the complimentary same day flight changes done via an APP that works whoohooo
Goodbye SuperElite - Hello Alaska with your happy people and wine and beer that taste good
Nov 30, 2014, 2:19 am
#52
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: YVR
Programs: AC*SE MM, Marriott Titanium, National Executive
Posts: 1,586
When I flew the SQ A380, I asked if I can see the suites. The FA offered to give me a personal tour after landing and insisted on taking pictures of me in the suite! (Apparently, they are not supposed to let pax into the suites cabin during the flight).
Last edited by mendy7511; Nov 30, 2014 at 2:24 am
Nov 30, 2014, 3:05 am
#53
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I hear a lot of comments and thoughts about the salary of FA's. Personally, I think it's a separate discussion all together. Ultimately, it's just the way the developing world works. They either make $4/hour CDN in HKG at minimum wage or they have no job. It just so happens the developed world (which by the way is much more expensive to live in) happens to have unionized FA's who get paid a fair wage (but who are we to judge what is fair). I think ultimately all have a job to do, and how we get paid and the society we live in is a whole different discussion (I can see your perspective for sure), but that is a whole other discussion on ethics.
Whether or not someone gets paid $4/hour or $40/hour doesn't matter, imo. The person making a lot less is more polite (Welcome back Mr. Penguin. Hope you have a safe trip home) is something that doesn't cost anything, yet is highly appreciative. e.g. "thanks for your loyalty" (consistently) is something that is engrained in corporate culture. Hence my original post. Why is it that rare we see someone go above and beyond when they are paid well and the converse is that a lower paying employee gives me better service?. It doesn't make sense to me...
+1. Exactly my original point. Your other point about, yeah, the other airlines are the same in NA, but I clear my upgrade - is also very fair. In N. America for the service industry, there are some places where I get BR like service - the Fairmont Palliser, McDonald, YVR airport, Chateau Frontenac, to name a few - they all know me by name. I get a suite upgrade every time. They are also unionized - so it is doable in N. America.
Fair point. However, it costs money on BR too. Labor is a significant line item either way for both AC and BR. Fares are usually a bit cheaper on BR as well, so in the end, why does it not balance out (I guess, is my question.)
If Airline A can do it, why can't Airline B? I know many people would have said "fire them all!" - in all seriousness, (I have no knowledge of union labor law, so please don't laugh), if that's the case, why not? Throw out, start again (IIRC, there was a teacher's union where that happened to). Like someone said earlier, it is a global market...is there a law preventing AC from dissolving its union workforce or is it more that people will strike and AC will be crippled (until the government steps in...)
Whether or not someone gets paid $4/hour or $40/hour doesn't matter, imo. The person making a lot less is more polite (Welcome back Mr. Penguin. Hope you have a safe trip home) is something that doesn't cost anything, yet is highly appreciative. e.g. "thanks for your loyalty" (consistently) is something that is engrained in corporate culture. Hence my original post. Why is it that rare we see someone go above and beyond when they are paid well and the converse is that a lower paying employee gives me better service?. It doesn't make sense to me...
Fair point. However, it costs money on BR too. Labor is a significant line item either way for both AC and BR. Fares are usually a bit cheaper on BR as well, so in the end, why does it not balance out (I guess, is my question.)
If Airline A can do it, why can't Airline B? I know many people would have said "fire them all!" - in all seriousness, (I have no knowledge of union labor law, so please don't laugh), if that's the case, why not? Throw out, start again (IIRC, there was a teacher's union where that happened to). Like someone said earlier, it is a global market...is there a law preventing AC from dissolving its union workforce or is it more that people will strike and AC will be crippled (until the government steps in...)
Last edited by tcook052; Dec 1, 2014 at 5:08 pm
Nov 30, 2014, 3:41 am
#54
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So are some people here implying that since AC is a NA airline and therefore the culture of the employer and employees is NA-aligned, that it is acceptable to not live up to higher standards similar to "can-do-attitude" societies (for the lack of a better term - paraphrasing similar word usage as a previous poster)?
Nov 30, 2014, 5:20 am
#55
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I decided to do some math/research on salaries since a couple of you have chosen some pretty harsh words....
Based on glassdoor.com, I've converted a monthly salary to CDN and it works out to be ~$30K a year. (this works out to be $20,000 HKD / month). - a CX FA as BR had no reported salaries.
As per the government (http://www.gov.hk/en/about/abouthk/f...population.pdf)
The median monthly domestic household
income
++
for 2013 was $22,400.
So to summarize. CX FA makes 20K a month. Median monthly domestic household income is 22K for a household. If you had two FA's working, you'd bring home 40K/month - almost double what the domestic household is. I'd say that's pretty darn good. The median Canadian salary for one person is $46K a year. If you had two people making that, you'd break 80K, which is a lot of money for some people - and that would be considered a middle class job - decently compensated.
- As a reference point, a SD makes 50,000HKD a month...
FA's are hardly slaves in Asian countries...so perhaps this can help our discussion further for those of you who would want to talk about compensation?
PS I still believe though that compensation discussion posts are still a bit out of scope from my original post...but hey, let's see where this goes!
PPS - A fellow FT on here who i've had the privilege to meet does know what FA's on AC get paid. I've had the privilege to get to know a few as friends, and while their benefits are pretty cool, they are not "rolling in it". Some have second jobs in the waiter/waitressing industry, so I'd like to think we're comparing apples to a variant of an apple from a different country (give or take), and keep in mind while AC FA's make slightly more, the cost of living is insane in Canada compared to HKG/TPE
PPPS - a FA is not an entry level job, irrespective of where you look in the world. You can't pay someone minimum wage and to run a safe airline and to produce decent service. I think the airlines we are thinking about which are safe and have decent service (SQ, CX, BR) etc definitely pay way above minimum wage. Whether or not that you agree it's enough is a moral question with no firm answer, but I think it's safe to agree that these are not low level jobs paying min. wage...
AC has explicitly said that the reason for the devaluations is to "benchmark themselves to CX" both with upgrade potential and improvements to hard/soft product. So...we'll see...I think they are trying to be, but as many have alluded to, we don't think that this is possible for the plethora of reasons many FTers have posted...
This isn't possible on domestic flights. I've broken down ROI (if we can call it an investment) and compared hard/soft products. AC still wins, by way of duopoly, not by truly benchmarking their product offerings to companies like CX/BR/SQ to which Altitude was benchmarked against. I remember posting something about AC having me at the balls. It's true, I truly feel that way. If BR or CX or SQ flew domestically, i'd be like a hot college girl finding a a handsome sugar daddy for the first time saying i'll take care of you sweetheart - e.g. GONE in a heartbeat. 
Currently picking a N. American airline is like picking between the different strains of Ebola/SARS. Which one will hurt less? (with all due respect to AC, as currently I do agree with the SkyTrax rating of AC being the best airline in N.A)
I try and vote with my dollars when I can. I'm in HKG right now trying to stay awake (jet lag). I had to figure out if I wanted to fly AC direct to HKG or fly BR threw TPE (Aeroplan) a year ago. (PS I'm huge into direct flights) Guess what I chose. BR in a heartbeat. The YQ is something I am willing to pay (yeah it hurts but i'm fortunate enough it doesn't dent my wallet), but the hard/soft product on BR was what got me going...hell i'll waste a few hours to transfer through TPE just for the food (yes I do like the food, i'm used to AC domestic J meals) and the amazing service. I have no regrets. BR for life (well they did stop releasing inventory 355 days out but i'll keep trying)
Based on glassdoor.com, I've converted a monthly salary to CDN and it works out to be ~$30K a year. (this works out to be $20,000 HKD / month). - a CX FA as BR had no reported salaries.
As per the government (http://www.gov.hk/en/about/abouthk/f...population.pdf)
The median monthly domestic household
income
++
for 2013 was $22,400.
So to summarize. CX FA makes 20K a month. Median monthly domestic household income is 22K for a household. If you had two FA's working, you'd bring home 40K/month - almost double what the domestic household is. I'd say that's pretty darn good. The median Canadian salary for one person is $46K a year. If you had two people making that, you'd break 80K, which is a lot of money for some people - and that would be considered a middle class job - decently compensated.
- As a reference point, a SD makes 50,000HKD a month...
FA's are hardly slaves in Asian countries...so perhaps this can help our discussion further for those of you who would want to talk about compensation?
PS I still believe though that compensation discussion posts are still a bit out of scope from my original post...but hey, let's see where this goes!
PPS - A fellow FT on here who i've had the privilege to meet does know what FA's on AC get paid. I've had the privilege to get to know a few as friends, and while their benefits are pretty cool, they are not "rolling in it". Some have second jobs in the waiter/waitressing industry, so I'd like to think we're comparing apples to a variant of an apple from a different country (give or take), and keep in mind while AC FA's make slightly more, the cost of living is insane in Canada compared to HKG/TPE
PPPS - a FA is not an entry level job, irrespective of where you look in the world. You can't pay someone minimum wage and to run a safe airline and to produce decent service. I think the airlines we are thinking about which are safe and have decent service (SQ, CX, BR) etc definitely pay way above minimum wage. Whether or not that you agree it's enough is a moral question with no firm answer, but I think it's safe to agree that these are not low level jobs paying min. wage...
So are some people here implying that since AC is a NA airline and therefore the culture of the employer and employees is NA-aligned, that it is acceptable to not live up to higher standards similar to "can-do-attitude" societies (for the lack of a better term - paraphrasing similar word usage as a previous poster)?
Currently picking a N. American airline is like picking between the different strains of Ebola/SARS. Which one will hurt less? (with all due respect to AC, as currently I do agree with the SkyTrax rating of AC being the best airline in N.A)I try and vote with my dollars when I can. I'm in HKG right now trying to stay awake (jet lag). I had to figure out if I wanted to fly AC direct to HKG or fly BR threw TPE (Aeroplan) a year ago. (PS I'm huge into direct flights) Guess what I chose. BR in a heartbeat. The YQ is something I am willing to pay (yeah it hurts but i'm fortunate enough it doesn't dent my wallet), but the hard/soft product on BR was what got me going...hell i'll waste a few hours to transfer through TPE just for the food (yes I do like the food, i'm used to AC domestic J meals) and the amazing service. I have no regrets. BR for life (well they did stop releasing inventory 355 days out but i'll keep trying)
Last edited by tcook052; Dec 1, 2014 at 5:08 pm
Nov 30, 2014, 6:45 am
#56
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While others are moving ahead, AC is moving backwards, and winning awards like North America's rudest legacy staff.
You really need to keep getting out more Angry Feet, maybe perhaps even fly Delta or JetBlue - you've made a first step to your AC Stockholm Syndrome, keep discovering new heights.
Nov 30, 2014, 6:46 am
#57
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More telling is the fact that in the overall SkyTrax rating they have been falling, and falling fast (currently #24, in 2013, they were #20, in 2012, #19)
While others are moving ahead, AC is moving backwards, and winning awards like North America's rudest legacy staff.
While others are moving ahead, AC is moving backwards, and winning awards like North America's rudest legacy staff.
Nov 30, 2014, 6:51 am
#58
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AC comes in chugging along at #8 in North America ahead of UA,US and Frontier.
Nov 30, 2014, 7:31 am
#59
Formerly known as tireman77
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,489
That being said, I am reminded of the words of a man much wiser than me who said: "Statistics are used like a drunk uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination."
Nov 30, 2014, 7:40 am
#60
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SkyTrax is a whole other beast, their metohodolgy is very suspect.
Surveying one's frequent flyers is not really representative of anything. These are not 'random' if you conduct them onboard a specific carrier.
"airlines were able to invite customers to participate and that some also circulated the survey to their frequent flyers"
Not to mention the speculation that airlines pay big money to SkyTrax for their star rating.