Changing AC culture
Nov 29, 2014, 9:46 am
#16
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto - YYZ
Programs: Aeroplan/Hilton Gold/Marriott Bonvoy Titanium/Accor/Hyatt Gold Passport
Posts: 5,899
Well, you could try LAN in SA as well and report back. Your experiences in your post could be almost replicated. Lots of staff, respect, cleanliness, greetings, help with baggage, great food and wine, tucking you in with duvet, and thank you by name for elites by the FD. Some differences, but sure sounds similar to what I experience regularly.
Nov 29, 2014, 11:55 am
#17
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: YYZ
Programs: Accor ALL Diamond, AC Aeroplan 25K, Nexus/GE
Posts: 2,732
You captured my thoughts in this post. I have travelled a couple of times on NZ, most notably on their inaugural flight YVR-AKL (in J and on points no less). They remain one of my most memorable flight experiences, and provide a level of warmth and quality that I've tried to mirror in my own performance on board. Much of what you've described on NZ, I experienced on my last flight cycle working alongside my "dream crew", knowing that a level of Customer satisfaction was achieved (in both J & Y), that ensured happy guests and guaranteed repeat business.
I just thought that was a nice touch, starting off the service before you're even on the plane. Of course, there are other things I like about NZ, but to me, that was the most memorable.
Nov 29, 2014, 12:13 pm
#18
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Vancouver
Programs: aeroplan SE, Fairmont Platinum. Starwood nobody
Posts: 43
Some people have mentioned above that warmth, service culture are asian traits and not quite as prevalent in the north american or european cultures. I am not sure I agree with this but if it is indeed the case, then should AC be hiring more FAs and GAs from Asia for North American flights? It's a global economy after all, especially for the airlines.
Nov 29, 2014, 12:36 pm
#19
Join Date: Jun 2009
Programs: Air Canada Aeroplan
Posts: 1,748
You've described every reason why we will not and cannot replicate Asian carriers (work rules, crew complement & staffing and the basic cultural differences). There is no reason that we cannot continue to focus on quality and improve the overall customer experience. I think using NZ as a benchmark - an airline which showcases its country and its culture is a great inspiration while maintaining our own individuality.
Nov 29, 2014, 1:04 pm
#20
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: YVR
Programs: Erstwhile Accidental AC E35K
Posts: 2,916
Gosh, where to start? A few things come to mind.
1. As a general rule, IME Asians know how to travel in style a lot better than we do in NA. This applies to airlines, hotels, resorts, restaurants and car services. They just do it better, if you're in the elite class, which matters there.
2. I have never had what I would call poor service or a bad experience with AC's on board service. It varies between satisfactory and good, but never have I seen anything that would match the eagerness to please I have experienced on some Asian airlines. Even Garuda, which tends to have a dubious reputation, I have found was better than AC in terms of the culture to please.
3. Where AC really fails is in the service, attitude and culture before and after the flight. The adjectives that come to mind are contemptuous and disdainful. It is hopelessly bad, not always, but often enough that it sticks in the craw, and is what springs to mind first when someone mentions AC. The result is that hating AC has become our second national pastime, after ice hockey.
4. In NA, culture is set by the senior management and flows downwards. The attitude and culture of the front line employees are shaped to a significant degree by how the are treated themselves. Until this changes, there will be no change in the culture of the front-line staff.
5. AC is not competing with the long haul Asian airlines, any more than Walmart tries to compete with Neiman Marcus or Nordstrom. It is a different market sector, and although they share some routes, AC's business model is clearly moving more and more toward the high volume, low margin Walmart approach. So to expect equivalent level of service to Asian airlines is a disconnect from their current business model.
6. The crap we see from the unions in NA is simply not tolerated in Asia. The union mentality is toxic in terms of improving the attitude and eagerness of front line employees. Similarly, employees with a poor attitude are not tolerated in Asia - gonzo! You can't do that in Canada, particularly with a union involved. (What ever happened to the baggage-dropping guys in the end? They got sacked, but did it stick?)
Based on my own experience, it would have to be a very unusual set of circumstances for me to travel to Asia on AC. There is far better value available for equivalent or less money. I don't expect it to change anytime soon.
1. As a general rule, IME Asians know how to travel in style a lot better than we do in NA. This applies to airlines, hotels, resorts, restaurants and car services. They just do it better, if you're in the elite class, which matters there.
2. I have never had what I would call poor service or a bad experience with AC's on board service. It varies between satisfactory and good, but never have I seen anything that would match the eagerness to please I have experienced on some Asian airlines. Even Garuda, which tends to have a dubious reputation, I have found was better than AC in terms of the culture to please.
3. Where AC really fails is in the service, attitude and culture before and after the flight. The adjectives that come to mind are contemptuous and disdainful. It is hopelessly bad, not always, but often enough that it sticks in the craw, and is what springs to mind first when someone mentions AC. The result is that hating AC has become our second national pastime, after ice hockey.
4. In NA, culture is set by the senior management and flows downwards. The attitude and culture of the front line employees are shaped to a significant degree by how the are treated themselves. Until this changes, there will be no change in the culture of the front-line staff.
5. AC is not competing with the long haul Asian airlines, any more than Walmart tries to compete with Neiman Marcus or Nordstrom. It is a different market sector, and although they share some routes, AC's business model is clearly moving more and more toward the high volume, low margin Walmart approach. So to expect equivalent level of service to Asian airlines is a disconnect from their current business model.
6. The crap we see from the unions in NA is simply not tolerated in Asia. The union mentality is toxic in terms of improving the attitude and eagerness of front line employees. Similarly, employees with a poor attitude are not tolerated in Asia - gonzo! You can't do that in Canada, particularly with a union involved. (What ever happened to the baggage-dropping guys in the end? They got sacked, but did it stick?)
Based on my own experience, it would have to be a very unusual set of circumstances for me to travel to Asia on AC. There is far better value available for equivalent or less money. I don't expect it to change anytime soon.
Nov 29, 2014, 1:33 pm
#21
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: YYC
Programs: AC SE 1MM, Marriott Ambassador
Posts: 3,397
4. In NA, culture is set by the senior management and flows downwards. The attitude and culture of the front line employees are shaped to a significant degree by how the are treated themselves. Until this changes, there will be no change in the culture of the front-line staff.
Nov 29, 2014, 1:59 pm
#22
Suspended
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC E50K (*G) WS Gold | SPG/Fairmont Plat Hilton/Hyatt Diamond Marriott Silver | National Exec Elite
Posts: 19,284
What you experienced is very similar to our own experience. Did you get your PJs ? S/M/L Sizes in dark brown with beige trim for men and beige with brown trim for women, IIRC.
I asked for champagne. Service on this was delayed. In charge came to me and apologized as the temperature of the champagne was too warm and needed to be chilled
^. "Holy Mackinaw"Asia I would rate the J service/experience in order of best to worst:
BR(1)SQ(2)AC(3)and TG(4)
BR/SQ were very close in our opinion, BTW
Just home, still getting over the jet lag. My son and his wife flying BR tomorrow in J from TPE/SEA. Will try to get his opinion
I asked for champagne. Service on this was delayed. In charge came to me and apologized as the temperature of the champagne was too warm and needed to be chilled
^. "Holy Mackinaw"Asia I would rate the J service/experience in order of best to worst:BR(1)SQ(2)AC(3)and TG(4)
BR/SQ were very close in our opinion, BTW
Just home, still getting over the jet lag. My son and his wife flying BR tomorrow in J from TPE/SEA. Will try to get his opinion
Nov 29, 2014, 2:01 pm
#23
Suspended
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC E50K (*G) WS Gold | SPG/Fairmont Plat Hilton/Hyatt Diamond Marriott Silver | National Exec Elite
Posts: 19,284
You captured my thoughts in this post. I have travelled a couple of times on NZ, most notably on their inaugural flight YVR-AKL (in J and on points no less). They remain one of my most memorable flight experiences, and provide a level of warmth and quality that I've tried to mirror in my own performance on board. Much of what you've described on NZ, I experienced on my last flight cycle working alongside my "dream crew", knowing that a level of Customer satisfaction was achieved (in both J & Y), that ensured happy guests and guaranteed repeat business.
You've described every reason why we will not and cannot replicate Asian carriers (work rules, crew complement & staffing and the basic cultural differences). There is no reason that we cannot continue to focus on quality and improve the overall customer experience. I think using NZ as a benchmark - an airline which showcases its country and its culture is a great inspiration while maintaining our own individuality.
You've described every reason why we will not and cannot replicate Asian carriers (work rules, crew complement & staffing and the basic cultural differences). There is no reason that we cannot continue to focus on quality and improve the overall customer experience. I think using NZ as a benchmark - an airline which showcases its country and its culture is a great inspiration while maintaining our own individuality.
Nov 29, 2014, 2:01 pm
#24
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: YYJ - Victoria
Programs: E50K
Posts: 453
I flew YYZ-YYJ in J on November 4. The guy in charge of the cabin provided exactly the type of service you are describing. Superb throughout. Just before we landed in Victoria, he crouched down beside me, addressed me by name, asked how things had been, and thanked me for flying AC. And then did the same for several other passengers.
Two years ago I flew SFO-NRT in J on ANA. Fantastic service there, too, as one would expect on a Japanese airline. (Every time someone used the washroom, one of the FAs went in to fold the toilet paper into a point again!) The only problem was that their English was only marginally better than my Japanese, and my Japanese vocabulary is maybe 50 words, not including automakers. Did they thank me for flying ANA? Darned if I know.
If we want AC to achieve higher levels of service, we can let them know when they do good things. After my Nov. 4 flight, I fired off an email to the Bens saying that their SD Robert was an absolute gem, an example for the entire fleet. Positive feedback can be very effective.
Beyond that, how can I ever engineer things so I am on a flight with ACYYZ/SD? All the advice and wise words has made a difference for me (including helping me to pick the best Y seat in the rather tight YVR-HKG flight last January).
Two years ago I flew SFO-NRT in J on ANA. Fantastic service there, too, as one would expect on a Japanese airline. (Every time someone used the washroom, one of the FAs went in to fold the toilet paper into a point again!) The only problem was that their English was only marginally better than my Japanese, and my Japanese vocabulary is maybe 50 words, not including automakers. Did they thank me for flying ANA? Darned if I know.
If we want AC to achieve higher levels of service, we can let them know when they do good things. After my Nov. 4 flight, I fired off an email to the Bens saying that their SD Robert was an absolute gem, an example for the entire fleet. Positive feedback can be very effective.
Beyond that, how can I ever engineer things so I am on a flight with ACYYZ/SD? All the advice and wise words has made a difference for me (including helping me to pick the best Y seat in the rather tight YVR-HKG flight last January).
Nov 29, 2014, 2:03 pm
#25
Suspended
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC E50K (*G) WS Gold | SPG/Fairmont Plat Hilton/Hyatt Diamond Marriott Silver | National Exec Elite
Posts: 19,284
Thanks for posting my partner in crime! I would guess that the cost of labour in asia is a lot lower, but what is the second line item for an Asian airline though? I would still think that it's labour as well...
Now having said that, one's wages and one's attitude to service, while tied, is in this case something that doesn't make sense. In N. America, they are paid more, yet are less service oriented. Doesn't make too much sense...
Now having said that, one's wages and one's attitude to service, while tied, is in this case something that doesn't make sense. In N. America, they are paid more, yet are less service oriented. Doesn't make too much sense...
Nov 29, 2014, 2:04 pm
#26
Suspended
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC E50K (*G) WS Gold | SPG/Fairmont Plat Hilton/Hyatt Diamond Marriott Silver | National Exec Elite
Posts: 19,284
I flew YYZ-YYJ in J on November 4. The guy in charge of the cabin provided exactly the type of service you are describing. Superb throughout. Just before we landed in Victoria, he crouched down beside me, addressed me by name, asked how things had been, and thanked me for flying AC. And then did the same for several other passengers.
Two years ago I flew SFO-NRT in J on ANA. Fantastic service there, too, as one would expect on a Japanese airline. (Every time someone used the washroom, one of the FAs went in to fold the toilet paper into a point again!) The only problem was that their English was only marginally better than my Japanese, and my Japanese vocabulary is maybe 50 words, not including automakers. Did they thank me for flying ANA? Darned if I know.
If we want AC to achieve higher levels of service, we can let them know when they do good things. After my Nov. 4 flight, I fired off an email to the Bens saying that their SD Robert was an absolute gem, an example for the entire fleet. Positive feedback can be very effective.
Beyond that, how can I ever engineer things so I am on a flight with ACYYZ/SD? All the advice and wise words has made a difference for me (including helping me to pick the best Y seat in the rather tight YVR-HKG flight last January).
Two years ago I flew SFO-NRT in J on ANA. Fantastic service there, too, as one would expect on a Japanese airline. (Every time someone used the washroom, one of the FAs went in to fold the toilet paper into a point again!) The only problem was that their English was only marginally better than my Japanese, and my Japanese vocabulary is maybe 50 words, not including automakers. Did they thank me for flying ANA? Darned if I know.
If we want AC to achieve higher levels of service, we can let them know when they do good things. After my Nov. 4 flight, I fired off an email to the Bens saying that their SD Robert was an absolute gem, an example for the entire fleet. Positive feedback can be very effective.
Beyond that, how can I ever engineer things so I am on a flight with ACYYZ/SD? All the advice and wise words has made a difference for me (including helping me to pick the best Y seat in the rather tight YVR-HKG flight last January).
Nov 29, 2014, 2:05 pm
#27
Suspended
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC E50K (*G) WS Gold | SPG/Fairmont Plat Hilton/Hyatt Diamond Marriott Silver | National Exec Elite
Posts: 19,284
Nov 29, 2014, 2:18 pm
#28
Suspended
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC E50K (*G) WS Gold | SPG/Fairmont Plat Hilton/Hyatt Diamond Marriott Silver | National Exec Elite
Posts: 19,284
Are asian airlines in fact NOT doing the same thing? Competition is global, are people really not price conscious?
Nov 29, 2014, 2:34 pm
#29
Suspended
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC E50K (*G) WS Gold | SPG/Fairmont Plat Hilton/Hyatt Diamond Marriott Silver | National Exec Elite
Posts: 19,284
There were a LOT of older FA's on my BR flight. The majority of them were over 40...age and service are different things, IMO. Are there some companies that do that, yes - all hot models as FA's, but that's not the case with BR, or CX when I flew them (a decade ago)
Nov 29, 2014, 2:37 pm
#30
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Canada
Programs: AC SE 2MM, HH Dd, SPG; IC Pl/A; AA; DL
Posts: 14,321
I don't need affection, just efficient and effective service.
I get that most of the time on AC with cabin crew and a good deal of the time with the airport agents, concierges and phone agents but it is inconsistent.
I agree the cleanliness and comfort of the cabins needs to come up a notch on AC and the service (primarily at the airports) only modestly so to please me.
, just efficient and effective service. I get that most of the time on AC with cabin crew and a good deal of the time with the airport agents, concierges and phone agents but it is inconsistent.
I agree the cleanliness and comfort of the cabins needs to come up a notch on AC and the service (primarily at the airports) only modestly so to please me.