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Southwest eyes northern push, threatening Air Canada, WestJet

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Southwest eyes northern push, threatening Air Canada, WestJet

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Old Jul 27, 2014, 5:15 pm
  #46  
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Originally Posted by upgradesecret
The Target department stores of the airlines.
No, the Walmart. VirginAmerica is the Target.

So soon we forget the number of vanquished like VirginAmerica's Canadian run that lasted a few months. As noted, operating costs ex-Canadian airports are similar for all carriers so there's no real operating advantage and competitors will only cut prices to get WN to submit. Will be good for flying whatever route is targeted though.
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Old Jul 27, 2014, 5:21 pm
  #47  
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Originally Posted by ensco
WN does not "serve" Toronto via BUF. Nobody "serves" YYZ pax in any meaningful sense of the word via BUF.

YYZ has 34M pax a year, BUF has 2M, of which maybe half, ie 1M, are Canadian.

Only maybe about half of those BUF pax are being dragged from the GTA (the rest live in St Catherines, Ft Erie, Niagara Falls, Welland, the western suburbs of Hamilton, or somewhere else closer to BUF than YYZ).

BUF serves something like 1.5% of the GTA market. It is a very niche market, mostly large families or other highly price-sensitive segments. That's it.
I know quite a few Mileage Runners from the GTA who fly from BUF regularly, as well as seasoned business travellers. It's enough for the MegaBus to run several busses a day via BUF too.
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Old Jul 27, 2014, 5:25 pm
  #48  
 
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Originally Posted by bdlman
I would think its western canada they would be looking at. Vanouver, Calgary or Edmonton.

They serve Toronto via BUF and could serve Montreal to Florida via Plattsburgh NY or Burlington VT if they wanted too. Plus theres tons of service from toronto and montreal to florida already. I would think this is looking at western canada where southwest is also much larger. Maybe even mainly LAS, PHX, and Cali into western canada that narrow a focus i could see being ideal.
I could see YEG being the perfect WN market. Decent catchment area and competitive airport fees. Lots of traffic to LAS which happens to be a hub city for them.
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Old Jul 27, 2014, 5:59 pm
  #49  
 
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I could see them flying into South Vancouver/BLI instead of the main airport.
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Old Jul 27, 2014, 6:02 pm
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Originally Posted by Shareholder
I know quite a few Mileage Runners from the GTA who fly from BUF regularly, as well as seasoned business travellers. It's enough for the MegaBus to run several busses a day via BUF too.
Of all people I wouldn't have expected you to respond to data with personal anecdotes.
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Old Jul 27, 2014, 6:19 pm
  #51  
 
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Originally Posted by yul36
I could see YEG being the perfect WN market. Decent catchment area and competitive airport fees. Lots of traffic to LAS which happens to be a hub city for them.
How competitive are the fees? There AIF is 30, vs 25 at other big airports (yul/yyz/yvr). I know a couple years ago yvr had lower landing fees, not sure if that is still true. Alberta as a whole would have lower tax on fuel which would help.

I doubt this thing will happen, I know someone at JetBlue and several years ago they looked at Canada and decided against it because of fees. Same thing will probably happen here, Canada just isn't cost effective for US LCC.
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Old Jul 27, 2014, 6:24 pm
  #52  
 
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Originally Posted by Shareholder
I know quite a few Mileage Runners from the GTA who fly from BUF regularly, as well as seasoned business travellers. It's enough for the MegaBus to run several busses a day via BUF too.
Does that MegaBus get delayed for long when there are inadmissable people onboard at the border crosssing?
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Old Jul 27, 2014, 7:39 pm
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Crampedin13A
Originally Posted by Shareholder
I know quite a few Mileage Runners from the GTA who fly from BUF regularly, as well as seasoned business travellers. It's enough for the MegaBus to run several busses a day via BUF too.
Does that MegaBus get delayed for long when there are inadmissable people onboard at the border crosssing?
Nope. If you are just sent to secondary but not denied entry the buses are frequent enough that you'd probably just get the next one - though you might still miss your flight. If you are denied outright the bus just leaves without you. The bus doesn't wait.
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Old Jul 27, 2014, 8:02 pm
  #54  
 
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The perspective of a well known Canadian aviation figure

The Southwest story is a little stale within the investment community ever since the legacies, and esp Delta and apparently AAG, figured out how to run their business properly, (ditch the ersatz LCC's, get the costs down across the board, focus on hub and spoke flying and nothing else, keep capacity growth in line with economic growth and maintain a consistent brand and product) and are now printing money.

Southwest needs to come up with something to satisfy the appetites of the quarterly earnings junkies so they roll out the expansion story. This is not the first time we've heard it and it won't be the last.

Yep. I can sure see Southwest making use of precious, and very expensive LGA or DCA slots to operate their typical high frequency model to YYZ, with connecting service from FLL, MCO, TPA, RSW etc

Why fly non-stop to Florida when you can connect at one of the most congested airports in the US for the same price?

Lest anyone forget, almost 40% of Southwest traffic is through or connecting. WestJet is probably a little more.

I doubt Air Canada or WestJet are going to feed Southwest any passengers. Conversely, I doubt either CDN carrier is kept awake at night worrying that Southwest might corner the connecting market from Tucson, Albuquerque, El Paso, Charleston or Omaha to Canada.

The key markets they'd be interested in are the ones that have a strong mix of both leisure AND business traffic.

In the US, Las Vegas, Florida, SoCal and Phx are both leisure and business. From Canada, they are much more heavily slanted to leisure.

That's not really what Southwest needs to make their model work.

I doubt SW is going to change their m/o in order to enter the Canadian market that is less than a tenth the size of the US market, yet already has a dedicated collective LCC fleet, (excluding what ever definition you choose to give Rouge), about 25% the size of SWA already flying n/s to the places they'd want to go.

Naturally, all trans-border fees and charges, not to mention excessive Cdn airport charges and AIF's, not to mention all other costs of operating in Canada will be waived allowing SW to be able to undercut Canadian domiciled carriers.

Cheaper fuel can be tankered in, but that option is available to Cdn carriers on short haul routes as well, esp on routes where aircraft are all but close cycled.

Southwest isn't a big fan of contracting out above or below wing functions in order to maintain consistency of their product and brand, so they'll have to start with a critical mass of flights from where ever they begin operations. Last time I checked, Southwest contracts basically prohibit redeye flying. Southwest isn't going to operate one flight a day from Winnipeg to Orlando or Moncton to Fort Lauderdale. They like to dominate whatever they take on, and that won't be easy in Canada. They don't like to go head to head with other LCCs. If you overlay the SW route map and the AirTran route map, there was very little overlap. That would not be the case in Canada.

Outside Texas and the few remaining Air Tran markets, Southwest doesn't pay much attention to markets smaller than 750,000 people. That doesn't leave a lot of possibilities in Canada. Trying to find the sorts of routes they like, with the sorts of frequencies they require to make it work in markets where they can achieve any sort of meaningful cost advantage is going to be a pretty tough task.

It would have been a heck of a lot easier in 2002.

It's a nice story to excite the market, but when one takes a hard look at all the factors and pieces that would have to fall into place to make it work, of which only a few are mentioned above, and knowing how fixed and stubborn SWA are in their ways, I'd be very surprised to see SW cross the border north anytime soon.
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Old Jul 27, 2014, 9:04 pm
  #55  
 
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Originally Posted by Shareholder
I know quite a few Mileage Runners from the GTA who fly from BUF regularly, as well as seasoned business travellers. It's enough for the MegaBus to run several busses a day via BUF too.
I think generalizing about "the market" based on the people known to a 34K FT Evangelist is probably misleading. The numbers are what they are. 98-99% of people flying out of the GTA go to Pearson and Billy Bishop.
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Old Jul 27, 2014, 9:22 pm
  #56  
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we need EasyJet to come to north america!
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Old Jul 27, 2014, 10:30 pm
  #57  
 
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Originally Posted by BenSenise
we need EasyJet to come to north america!
Did you read the rest of the thread where it is mentioned ULCC's won't work in Canada due to cost structure?
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Old Jul 27, 2014, 11:17 pm
  #58  
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...figured out how to run their business properly, (ditch the ersatz LCC's,...)
So I guess it wasn't anyone from Air Canada.

Originally Posted by ensco
I think generalizing about "the market" based on the people known to a 34K FT Evangelist is probably misleading. The numbers are what they are. 98-99% of people flying out of the GTA go to Pearson and Billy Bishop.
More than two million Canadians flew out of Buffalo last year.
http://www.buffaloairport.com/toronto/


In 2013, it [YYZ] handled 36,109,469 passengers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto...tional_Airport


If YYZ "handled" about 36 million passengers, I presume about half were arriving and about half were departing. So a little over 18 million passengers "flew out of" YYZ.

Now, take away all the non-North Americans who probably don't even know BUF exists. Take away all the short haul intra-Canada flights/passengers (i.e. RapidAir triangle - which I presume is a goodly number). Take away all the others for whom BUF is not a viable option. How many passengers are left?

If 18 million flew out of YYZ, and 2 million flew out of BUF, that's about 20 million. The 2 million that flew out of BUF represent about 10% of that number. And that's without any adjustments to the raw numbers.

The real measure is not absolute numbers, but rather what percentage of potential YYZ passengers for whom BUF is a viable option are exercising that option. (Clearly someone flying YYZ-YOW is not going to fly out of BUF - excepting me, maybe. So they shouldn't enter into the calculation.)

The number of passengers choosing to fly out of BUF might be a lot smaller than YYZ traffic, but clearly BUF is poaching a significant portion of GTAA traffic. It appears it might well be a double-digit percentage.



Do the same for YVR/BLI and I suspect the portion is significantly larger. One only has to drive through the airport and area hotel parking lots to see that there are more BC plates than US plates in those lots. You'd still need to compare it to the YVR numbers, but like shopping for gas and groceries, many in the Metro Vancouver area choose to go to BLI.

Originally Posted by winnipegrev
Did you read the rest of the thread where it is mentioned ULCC's won't work in Canada due to cost structure?
So if I "mention" in this thread that the earth is flat, does that mean ships will start sailing over the edge never to be seen again?


Last edited by tcook052; Jul 28, 2014 at 5:27 am
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Old Jul 28, 2014, 12:12 am
  #59  
 
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Originally Posted by KenHamer
So if I "mention" in this thread that the earth is flat, does that mean ships will start sailing over the edge never to be seen again?
My bad. I guess ULCCs aren't in Canada just because they aren't interested in the huge profits they could be making.

It doesn't take triple digit IQ to determine total fare differences between airlines narrow considerably as fixed taxes per ticket increase as a % of airfare.
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Old Jul 28, 2014, 1:21 am
  #60  
 
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If WN thinks they can make money in the transborder market, bring it on. They'll be using US crews and US aircraft, so other than airport fees, the cost basis is the same as what they are doing now, they aren't trying to enter the domestic market.
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