T8191

We are having a couple of weeks in ZA in December, and finally today got round to booking accommodation. The following interesting variations occurred [I won't identify the properties concerned]:

Cape Town [hotel]: Booked with Amex, no problem, once I had convinced Amex this unusual transaction on my account was OK.

Franschhoek [wine estate/hotel]: Booked with Visa, as they don't take Amex. No problem.

Stellenbosch [wine estate/hotel]: Booked with Amex, seemingly no problem. HOWEVER, I then get an email saying that I either have to pay by Electronic Funds Transfer (EFT) or ... wait for it ... "Or we can do a manual transaction. If you do the EFT payment please forward us the proof of payment once you have made the transfer. If you prefer we do a manual deduction we would require the attached credit card authorisation form [!!!!] to be completed and returned with a copy of your identification as well as a back and front copy of the card you wish to be deducted."

Excuse me?? I'm now required to email a scan of my passport, and both sides of my Amex??
After a quick exchange of emails, it seems I have to do this because I booked a Wine Tasting in addition to the accommodation? Only one of the other accommodation bookings asked for my (UK) passport details on the booking form, the other one didn't but has my address etc..

After a quick back and forward, my wife found somewhere else in Centraal Stellenbosch, so we booked there ... Amex, no passport details, simple as anything. Original booking cancelled, and their loss of 22k ZAR

From the original Stellenbosch establishment's T&C ... "If Guests are travelling from outside of South Africa we are obliged by law to require Guests to provide the number and place of issue of the given passport / identity card and details of their fixed home address. These records will be kept for a minimum of 12 months and may be disclosed or made available for inspection by any police officer or as otherwise required by applicable law in connection with the prevention or investigation of crime. The information above may be requested for each member of your party, including children, and we reserve the right to refuse entry to persons who cannot provide the information set out above."
But ... the others aren't asking for a scan of my passport, and both sides of my Credit Card!!

Has anyone else encountered this sort of process?

jsnydcsa

Granted, I'm staying more and more with friends and family during my visits to SA (including CPT, STB and Franschhoek) but, as recently as just a couple of months ago I have on occasion found a place or two in all these areas (and out in Hermanus) have at least some sort of either (a) pay in advance via EFT, (b) give passport details (either online or a scan of same) or (c) a scan of front and back of credit card.

(a) seems to always be an option. In SA, at least in my experience, a lot of people pay via online transfers or direct deposits (e.g. cash deposit at a bank into a person's/merchant's account) for all sorts of things that others in other places in the world might write a check for.
(b) fairly common - admittedly I've never seen such detail (or looked for it) in T&Cs - I've provided it either in the online form or via scan of passport.
(c) not so common recently. But, 8-12 years ago, when I was traveling extensively in SA for business and personal reasons, a near common occurrence at nearly every hotel and lodge I stayed at. The big chains (Intercontinental, etc.) didn't ask but middle to smaller places (such as game lodge companies, guest house, B&Bs, medium-local hotels). Often, you had to fax it in advance.

Can't say I know WHY this is so common in SA. But, touch wood, I've done some or all of it in SA and it hasn't been a problem - either fraud-wise, or otherwise.

Not that you have any true recourse here - other than the satisfaction of it - but have you tried AMEX on the issue? [The title of your thread is "Hotel payment with Amex"]. If one of AMEX's authorized merchants/hotels who accepts AMEX is adding all these additional layers onto the process, AMEX might (a) want to know about that and (b) might be willing to work on your behalf to guarantee your reservation on the basis of providing card info only. If you're really interested in staying at the hotel that you backed out of, (b) might be worthwhile (if AMEX can/will do it).

And, finally,
Frankly, this sounds like a made up reason for why they needed the info. I suspect that they would have requested it even for just the hotel booking. I know some restaurants (in SA and elsewhere) ask for credit card info to guarantee the reservation. But, I think this is just a semi-canned response of a clerk/agent replying to your email. Indeed, a wine tasting is certainly less expensive than a ZAR20,000 hotel stay. Why would they ONLY need it for the wine tasting and not the hotel stay?

T8191

Much valued and detailed response ... thank you. ^

My first [understandable] reaction was that I was being scammed, which led to the first flush of emails with <redacted> !! It's our first time ever in any part of Africa, so I'm hyper-nervous about anything! And I certainly don't launch scans of passports and Credit Cards by email!!

OK, I'm broadly content. So some places do this [for whatever reason] but 3/4 [of the ones we tried to book] didn't. And the difficult one lost 22k ZAR, and the 3 easy ones got our money. That's business life

I appreciate the idea of contacting Amex ... I'll see if the Manager at <redacted> bothers to get back to me: I've suggested, through Reservations, it could be costing them custom, but at least know I know it's not unusual. As to the 'package addition', it's just weird.

Anyway, we found a more interesting place in Stellenbosch for half the cost, and as we had already booked one wine estate the change of vibe will be good.

My thanks again.

Roger

Yes, and I booked elsewhere.

I was trying to book the Premier Classe train between Johannesburg and Cape Town. At the time, there were not many opportunities online, and they required scans of passport, both sides of credit card, alongside address, phone number etc. All the information needed for identity theft. I checked my contacts for advice and was recommended a local (CT) agent who delivered. I think it's easier now.

BTW, you mention AmEx. The procedure you describe is not limited to AmEx, I've also had it with Visa and MC.

If you book City Lodge group hotels in advance, they take the whole payment in advance even for cancellable refundable rates. Show your credit card at a City Lodge group hotel, they'll probably write down - manually - card info including the 3-digit security code otherwise needed for 'card not present' transactions. I saw this happening once at CT, protested and they said they wouldn't retain the info. (Too late, I think.) Because of this, I now rarely stay at City Lodge group hotels.

The 'required by law' nonsense is simply b*ll*cks. If it were true, they'd all try it on.

ThudAndBlunder

It's not uncommon for hotels in South Africa to request similar ludicrous-seeming (and scary) levels of documentation. It's not unknown for them to relent if you push back a bit.

T8191

Well a couple of new things have developed ...

1. After telling the Stellenbosch establishment to forget it [and we found somewhere more suitable nearby anyway!] they came back this morning to say they didn't need all that after all, and my passport number and card details would be fine. So they didn't need a signed authorisation, or scans of both sides of my Amex and my passport after all!! Anyway, too late - they lost ZAR 22k and someone else wins

2. However ... during a morning of hotel bookings on-line, at 1026 I received an Amex fraud alert for an unexpected transaction. It was the first hotel on our list, so that cleared easily. Then, at 1959, I received another fraud alert ... "Kate Spade" had tried to spend £1,427!! Following that, Amex blocked the card, and a new one is being processed/in the post. So now I have had to contact all 3 hotels [who won't be able to get their deposits] and eventually register the new card with people like Amazon and PayPal.

What a great first experience for contacting ZA ... NOT.
Certainly I now intend to use cash everywhere we go.

<expletive> <expletive>

jsnydcsa

Oh young padawan, you have so much to learn about SA. I suggest a casual read through the various fora here for a true sense of what it could be like. This forum as well as the South African Airways forum might give you a sense of the term "T.I.A."

On a more serious note, you'll have a great time. For first time visitors, I often recommend Franschhoek and Stellenbosch. Hope you enjoy it.

I'm surprised that someone at this place cared enough after you reached out to them and said no thanks and that you were taking your business elsewhere. See, above.


Sorry about that. Perhaps during your call with Amex re: hotel in #1, you could try and get to the bottom of who may have provided your card details. That might guide you to not patronize one of the three hotels you ultimately did book or perhaps the source of the card info leak was something else - merchant-wise.

Keep in mind that this will likely confuse matters. "Now, you want to give us a different card? Eish!" And, you are likely to have to transmit that new information via email rather than simply going online to a reservation system and simply logging in and using an add/change/cancel reservation online system. Good luck. Maybe AMEX can help with that. AMEX might (I'm totally speculating here) have back office people at AMEX who have back office/finance contacts at each of the three establishments whom AMEX can communicate with to update the card info. [EDIT Re-reading your quote, I see you've done it already. No bother but I thought I would leave these previous six or so sentences in. END EDIT]

Depending on your travel timelines, I'd STRONGLY suggest just a basic confirmation email to each establishment. "Ladies and Gentlemen. Reconfirming reservation XXX for [date] to [date] for party of Y for [such and such room type] at rate Z" Don't even mention the card info/issues. And, deal with it on arrival at the establishment of just presenting your current valid. Why? See first comment above.

Sorry to be so hit and miss. My experience is with SA (and mostly, Western Cape). You half get used to it, half expect it, half just know how to deal with it and half shrug it off and deal with the frustration (or drink). Yes, that's four halves. Sometimes, SA requires 200% of the effort.

T8191

Once again, my thanks for your constructive input ^

Certainly I now have an enhanced reluctance to do ANYTHING on plastic in ZA!! Anyway, two of the hotels have already responded to my email ... one was booked with Visa, and that's OK. Another [Amex] has my old card details, and is just waiting for my new card ... I take your point that re-booking on-line, with https, might be a good answer. The third is a chain in CPT, who are moving ponderously to respond.Point taken ... I'll see how they respond to the new card. I could suggest a new booking, having checked for https first!!
Yes, we only booked due to bargain BA reward availability being available on a new route (LGW-CPT) costing us GBP 420 each, in Business/Club World, to somewhere we've never been. This will however, sadly, be our first and last visit to Africa ... I'm too old to be bothered with this sort of aggravation ... it could trigger the alternative version of T.I.A.

Roger

No-o-o! At least please wait until your trip before deciding.

jsnydcsa's philosophy is probably right. And Africa is different from the First World. Would you really deprive yourself of any chance of visiting a whole continent because of a poor SA experience?

Most of my Africa travel (the Maghreb, Kenya, SA, Gaborone) was on business and I had absolutely no wish to return privately. Until my first SA visit, that is, in the year democracy broke out. I no longer travel down on business but am grateful that I am still able to visit SA privately every year (in spite of BA's best efforts to deny me Avios travel).

Knowing you and your resilience from the BA forum, I hope you will be able to put this experience behind you. There really is so much to see and do in SA.

Oh, I'm ageing too, not so far behind you, and can still manage it.

T8191

Point taken, Roger ... I'm just a bit grumpy that my first interaction with Africa led to where I am [waiting for a new Amex, re-contacting hotels].

And however much we like it, it's unlikely we'll get a GBP 420 fare in Club World again [unless I sit up until midnight, at T-365, with fingers pointed over the keyboard]

propitious

I've managed to get many award fares in business class to JNB for 4 of us, and in school holidays to boot. Not an impossibility at all, if you can be flexible with days. And ringing BA at 7am usually gets you through to the very helpful Newcastle call centre; the London SAA centre is also many steps up from the ZA call centres.

SA is a fantastic destination. Whilst paperwork etc can be a bit of a PITA, it's well worth the effort. Definitely my destination of first choice.

T8191

What have I missed? What do I need? UK Passport OK, yes?

pomkiwi

Yes. No visa but 2 empty pages (I think facing each other) and 6 months validity. That being said I don't think I've ever had 2 pages actually used.

Roger

A couple of years ago on arrival at CPT from the UK, I asked the Immigration officer about the 2 blank pages rule. She said that since they updated their systems, this was no longer necessary.

Nevertheless - with ancient memories of VS passengers without the blank pages being denied boarding at a 'security' passport check (G4S?) immediately before boarding for JNB - I'd really like to see this in writing!

T8191

Thanks for those updates. Most of our our passport stamps are US ones, often scattered randomly everywhere, although they now seem to keep them mainly on one page if possible. Caribbean countries appear to prefer using a fresh page every time!

Plenty of blank pages for now, but I will ask the US CBP to continue being tidy!