Poaching rhinos / elephants, etc. Is it as bad as we are told?
Jan 27, 2016, 11:58 am
#406
Moderator: Travel Buzz
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Sunny San Diego
Posts: 3,095
"The Department of Environmental Affairs has set provincial leopard hunting quotas at zero for 2016.
“Recent research suggests that trophy hunting may be unsustainable in Limpopo, KwaZulu Natal and possibly North West. This is due mainly to excessive quotas, clumping of hunting effort, poor trophy selection, and the additive effects of DCA [damage-causing-animal] control combined with other forms of illegal off-take,”. According to [Department of Environmental Affairs Chief Director Communications] Modise, the decision, which effectively bans leopard hunting, applies throughout South Africa."
Source
Johan
“Recent research suggests that trophy hunting may be unsustainable in Limpopo, KwaZulu Natal and possibly North West. This is due mainly to excessive quotas, clumping of hunting effort, poor trophy selection, and the additive effects of DCA [damage-causing-animal] control combined with other forms of illegal off-take,”. According to [Department of Environmental Affairs Chief Director Communications] Modise, the decision, which effectively bans leopard hunting, applies throughout South Africa."
Source
Johan
Feb 10, 2016, 8:53 am
#407
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 14,352
"The US listing of two subspecies of lion as endangered is expected to impact the importation of lion trophies and particularly canned lion hunting.
The US Wildlife and Fish Service (USWFS) has listed two subspecies of lion: Panthera leo leo found in central and western Africa and Panthera leo melanochaita in eastern and southern Africa, under the Endangered Species Act."
Source
Johan
The US Wildlife and Fish Service (USWFS) has listed two subspecies of lion: Panthera leo leo found in central and western Africa and Panthera leo melanochaita in eastern and southern Africa, under the Endangered Species Act."
Source
Johan
Feb 12, 2016, 1:44 am
#408
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 529
The eastern and southern lions are not listed as "endangered." They are listed as "threatened."
http://www.fws.gov/endangered/what-we-do/lion.html
The subspecies of P. l. melanochaita likely numbers between 17,000-19,000 and is found across southern and eastern Africa. The Service determined that this subspecies is less vulnerable and is not currently in danger of extinction. However, although lion numbers in southern Africa are increasing overall, there are populations that are declining due to ongoing threats. As a result, the Service finds the subspecies meets the definition of a threatened species under the ESA.
Feb 12, 2016, 1:57 am
#409
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 6,334
If you want to criticise someone who paid $350000 to legally take a rhino... fair enough. Free speech and all that
BUT.. Unless you are personally prepared to contribute a similar amount to game and species management... which is what those trophy fees are for... id be at least a LITTLE circumspect about it.
After all these trophy permits are generally AUCTIONED... so.. guess what?
YOU can buy all of them... then NOT hunt the animal.
It will still likely be culled... as surplus to herd needs/already contributed to genetic diversity.... but it will be done by a disinterested ranger rather than a paying hunter. Would that make you happy?
Ok then... put your money where your mouth is.....[Moderator edit]. That hunter you despise has done FAR more for rhino conservation efforts than... i am certain... ANY of those making insulting remarks about him....
As sad as it is.. and as much you may wish it to be different, one BIG factor in survival for these animals will be to enhance their economic value.... tourism etc... great... but huge wads of money paid to take surplus animals that would be culled anyway? Madness not to grab that.
BUT.. Unless you are personally prepared to contribute a similar amount to game and species management... which is what those trophy fees are for... id be at least a LITTLE circumspect about it.
After all these trophy permits are generally AUCTIONED... so.. guess what?
YOU can buy all of them... then NOT hunt the animal.
It will still likely be culled... as surplus to herd needs/already contributed to genetic diversity.... but it will be done by a disinterested ranger rather than a paying hunter. Would that make you happy?
Ok then... put your money where your mouth is.....[Moderator edit]. That hunter you despise has done FAR more for rhino conservation efforts than... i am certain... ANY of those making insulting remarks about him....
As sad as it is.. and as much you may wish it to be different, one BIG factor in survival for these animals will be to enhance their economic value.... tourism etc... great... but huge wads of money paid to take surplus animals that would be culled anyway? Madness not to grab that.
Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Mar 5, 2016 at 3:07 pm Reason: Per FT Rules 12, 16.
Feb 12, 2016, 9:35 am
#410
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 14,352
Can you site one instance of rhinos being culled?
Even SANParks, notorious for shooting elephants, buffalo, lions and all sorts of other species in the KNP by the thousands, has never culled a single rhino.
Besides, rhinos don't live in herds, and what is "surplus to herd needs" supposed to mean anyway?
And who says trophy fees go to game and species managment? In Africa? You are kidding me, right?
[Moderator edit to reflect edit to original post quoted by member.]
Johan
Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Mar 5, 2016 at 3:09 pm Reason: See note above.
Feb 12, 2016, 9:44 am
#411
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 14,352
"The process will ensure that imported specimens are legally obtained in range countries as part of a scientifically sound management program that benefits the subspecies in the wild."
As canned lion hunting brings no benefits whatsoever to the subspecies in the wild, one may hope that this regulation will neck it.
Johan
Feb 12, 2016, 9:43 pm
#412
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 529
Gotta love that South African tourism rag. Gets the facts right about 2 percent of the time. But that's apparently good enough to be quoted constantly on an Internet forum.
Concerning the "threatened" subspecies, the US government said:
Concerning the "threatened" subspecies, the US government said:
The final 4(d) rule will allow the Service to support changes that strengthen the governance and accountability of conservation programs in other nations. Well-managed conservation programs use trophy hunting revenues to sustain lion conservation, research and anti-poaching activities.
Sustainable trophy hunting as part of a well-managed conservation program can and does contribute to the survival of the species in the wild, providing real incentives to oppose poaching and conserve lion populations,” said Ashe. “Implementing a permit requirement will give us the authority we need to work with African countries to help them improve their lion management programs.”
Sustainable trophy hunting as part of a well-managed conservation program can and does contribute to the survival of the species in the wild, providing real incentives to oppose poaching and conserve lion populations,” said Ashe. “Implementing a permit requirement will give us the authority we need to work with African countries to help them improve their lion management programs.”
Last edited by Sabasi; Feb 14, 2016 at 1:35 am
Mar 5, 2016, 1:55 pm
#413
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
The pro-trophy hunt people, permitting authorities and professional hunters keep repeating the myth that trophy hunting somehow does more than put money in the pockets of a few breeders, guides, permit authorities in the upper echelons and corrupt members who knowingly allow such practices as trap and release to order, baiting across park boundaries, etc. and provide some money to a taxidermist and pittance so to the actual on the ground trackers, syces, etc. (often part time employees in any case). Oh, we forgot the photo ops, including the mass village "Look! Free meat!" calls that "prove" hungry people "rely" on hunters to feed them.
Rhino "herds"? Surely, rhinos are solitary animals (other than females and calves). And "rhino culls"? Where, precisely?
Now: I've hunted, and I know hunters. I've eaten game, and I've patronized places that have returned land to wildlife, need to cull and sell to market, and the like. That's an entirely different thing from what's being done in many parts (baiting, lion "farming" for canned hunts and parts to Asia to substitute for ever-rarer tiger parts, flat out poaching, etc.)
This thread is mostly about poaching. I'd hope the spectrum of members - from animal rights activists to hunters, vegans to carnivores, can hold some common opinion about the rampant poaching (now proven to often be linked to government corruption and organized crime by the likes of National Geographic) occurring in so many places - perhaps epitomized by the continuing diminution of the African elephant population and absolute position of peril occupied by the rhinoceros.
Rhino "herds"? Surely, rhinos are solitary animals (other than females and calves). And "rhino culls"? Where, precisely?
Now: I've hunted, and I know hunters. I've eaten game, and I've patronized places that have returned land to wildlife, need to cull and sell to market, and the like. That's an entirely different thing from what's being done in many parts (baiting, lion "farming" for canned hunts and parts to Asia to substitute for ever-rarer tiger parts, flat out poaching, etc.)
This thread is mostly about poaching. I'd hope the spectrum of members - from animal rights activists to hunters, vegans to carnivores, can hold some common opinion about the rampant poaching (now proven to often be linked to government corruption and organized crime by the likes of National Geographic) occurring in so many places - perhaps epitomized by the continuing diminution of the African elephant population and absolute position of peril occupied by the rhinoceros.
Last edited by JDiver; Mar 5, 2016 at 3:10 pm Reason: Clarify
May 5, 2016, 2:49 pm
#414
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 14,352
Leading safari operators slam canned lion hunting
"A group of leading safari operators have taken a stand against predator breeding and canned hunting practices.
“Whilst predator breeding and canned hunting practices are currently confined to southern Africa, we stand together as a pan-African industry in joining our voices with the global call for having them stopped,” the statement reads. “The established predator research and scientific community do not recognize any of the breeders or operating facilities as having conservation merit.”"
Source
In other news, the Netherlands have now completely banned the import of trophies of some 200 species, including lion, leopard, elephant and rhino.
Johan
“Whilst predator breeding and canned hunting practices are currently confined to southern Africa, we stand together as a pan-African industry in joining our voices with the global call for having them stopped,” the statement reads. “The established predator research and scientific community do not recognize any of the breeders or operating facilities as having conservation merit.”"
Source
In other news, the Netherlands have now completely banned the import of trophies of some 200 species, including lion, leopard, elephant and rhino.
Johan
May 8, 2016, 2:20 pm
#415
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 14,352
"A total of 363 rhino were poached in South Africa from January to April 2016, Environmental Minister Edna Molewa announced in Pretoria on Sunday. “During the same period last year, that national figure was 404.”
However, in terms of poaching incursions – which included attempted and thwarted attempts at poaching – the number increased by 28% to 1 038 in the first four months of this year at the Kruger National Park alone. The equivalent figure for last year was 808."
Source
Johan
However, in terms of poaching incursions – which included attempted and thwarted attempts at poaching – the number increased by 28% to 1 038 in the first four months of this year at the Kruger National Park alone. The equivalent figure for last year was 808."
Source
Johan
May 8, 2016, 6:15 pm
#416
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 306
"A total of 363 rhino were poached in South Africa from January to April 2016, Environmental Minister Edna Molewa announced in Pretoria on Sunday. “During the same period last year, that national figure was 404.”
However, in terms of poaching incursions – which included attempted and thwarted attempts at poaching – the number increased by 28% to 1 038 in the first four months of this year at the Kruger National Park alone. The equivalent figure for last year was 808."
Source
Johan
However, in terms of poaching incursions – which included attempted and thwarted attempts at poaching – the number increased by 28% to 1 038 in the first four months of this year at the Kruger National Park alone. The equivalent figure for last year was 808."
Source
Johan
May 23, 2016, 10:16 am
#417
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 238
Yea it's a huge problem. I will say this though - for as bad as it is, there are still some success stories. SA has done a lot for the black rhino population over the years. In Zambia, which historically has had absolutely horrific poaching, there is progress with bringing rhinos back into North Luangwa National Park and to eventually place them into South Luangwa National Park, which is where the majority of safari operations are located in the country. There used to be something like 5000 black rhinos in South Luangwa and currently there are 0.
I'm sure this subject has been beaten to death already but the biggest reason for rhino and elephant poaching is the demand in Asia.
There are those that want to hunt rhinos and other wildlife in Africa (see the Nambian rhino auction for $300k and of course the Cecil situation). They are easier people to "hate" but really don't even hold a candle in comparison to habitat encroachment and poaching - the real game changers. That said - I don't believe that hunters contribute to conservation as is the common mantra. The big trophy fees that are claimed to be doing so much for the community and for conservation really end up in the pockets of a few people. If the premise of the trophy going to the appropriate places were true, then perhaps there could be merit in hunting = conservation, I suppose that is debateable. But for now I'd say it's doing more harm than good for the most part (but again, this isn't the epidemic - habitat encroachment and poaching is).
I can't say that I'm an expert, but I've been going on safari almost every year for the past 20 years and have learned quite a bit.
I'm sure this subject has been beaten to death already but the biggest reason for rhino and elephant poaching is the demand in Asia.
There are those that want to hunt rhinos and other wildlife in Africa (see the Nambian rhino auction for $300k and of course the Cecil situation). They are easier people to "hate" but really don't even hold a candle in comparison to habitat encroachment and poaching - the real game changers. That said - I don't believe that hunters contribute to conservation as is the common mantra. The big trophy fees that are claimed to be doing so much for the community and for conservation really end up in the pockets of a few people. If the premise of the trophy going to the appropriate places were true, then perhaps there could be merit in hunting = conservation, I suppose that is debateable. But for now I'd say it's doing more harm than good for the most part (but again, this isn't the epidemic - habitat encroachment and poaching is).
I can't say that I'm an expert, but I've been going on safari almost every year for the past 20 years and have learned quite a bit.
May 25, 2016, 9:59 am
#418
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Dubai
Posts: 3,301
South Africa just lifted its ban on the Rhino horn trade: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2...ing-swaziland/
May 27, 2016, 1:17 pm
#419
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 14,352
Suspected poachers open fire on SANParks helicopter
"Suspected poachers fired on a SANParks helicopter five times in the Kruger National Park on Wednesday. The helicopter managed to land with all the crew on board safe."
Source
Johan
Source
Johan
May 27, 2016, 2:29 pm
#420
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: North Sentinel Island
Programs: UA Gold, BONVOY TIT
Posts: 777
South Africa just lifted its ban on the Rhino horn trade: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2...ing-swaziland/
WTH??