Tennen

What I find disingenuous is that the *A website implies that Olympic Air is part of Star Alliance by virtue of it being an A3 subsidiary.
Star Alliance Aegean Airlines

Bolding mine.

Even Olympic Air About Us touts its *A affiliation.

If you take a look at *A's pages for LH, TG, and SQ, there's no mention of their subsidiaries, except for a small note in TG's fleet for Thai Smile.

For all intents and purposes, it seems like OA and A3 are pretty much aligned in terms of fare structure, product, service, etc. OA is more like AC Express and UA Express, feeding flights to/from the primary carrier, so IMHO, they really should be part of *A and offer the full benefits. AFAIK, Scoot, Thai Smile, and Eurowings are LCCs, with little(?) resemblance to their parent carriers, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

1353513636

Scoot is an LCC nothing like SQ, same applies for Eurowings.

Thai Smile is just a cost cutting exercise for TG, like Olympic. Thai Smile is full service, and simply replaced TG service on many routes, but just isn't *A. Comparable examples around the world to the A3/OA situation are Asiana/Air Seoul, SQ/SilkAir, SA/SA Airlink. The OP's examples were not the best but this is something that is indeed spreading like cancer around *A and I am quite concerned. At least NH/Air Japan and AC/rouge keep their lower cost subsidiary in *A.

As for the A3/OA situation, if the plane said Aegean and the crew were Aegean, wouldn't it still be eligible for miles and lounge because in *A, it's operating carrier, not coding carrier that matters.

NWIFlyer

The reason it's not eligible is that A3 & OA have separate AOCs. Whilst often it's physically Aegean metal on domestic routes, actually they're wet leasing their aircraft to OA.

Knobbgb

Are they really "wet leased"? I know it's pedantic but surely that would imply some kind of leasing contract. If a subfleet were assigned to Olympic for some period of time and just operated those flights then that might be the case, but an aircraft will arrive on an A3 flight, then operate an OA rotation and then go back to A3 without any formalities behind the scene (as far as we know).

Another point which nobody has mentioned (and I agree with NWIFlyer that there is very little new to be said on this subject), when you buy an OA ticket - even a purely domestic one, it is issued on A3 stock (390) NOT OA stock (050). As far as I know, this applies whichever website you use, although I haven't booked directly through the OA website for some time. Can anyone comment if Eurowings issue on LH stock or Scoot on SQ? This is probably irrelevant but it's just another little fact that points to OA being more like United Express than the other subsidies we have considered.

So far we have flights:

Booked through Aegean website
With Aegean flight number
Ticket issued on Aegean stock
Aegean Metal
Aegean crew
Aegean service standards

But the flight isn't Aegean.

1353513636

LH issues Eurowings on their stock.

SQ does not issue Scoot on their stock but Scoot issues SQ on their stock.

KLouis

I'll come back to NWIFlyer's post (#41), signing as the Mod, urging us all to contribute something "new". So far, I have seen ~20 additional posts but none of them contributes anything new, other than a little speculation on what kind of contracts exist between A3 and OA. My post will also use different words (but nothing new) and it will most probably be my last one in this thread.

We all agree that the current "system" is particular bad/unfair/bothersome to *Gs flying A3 in coach and connecting to a domestic flight. We all agree that the previous situation was better for them. Other than that, there is no additional group of people who are "victimized" by this (non-connecting OA passengers never enjoyed *G benefits). Now, what's the number of people in this category of customers? None of us knows, but we all assume that they represent a big chunk of the customers, which is why we think that A3 would have not gone into this "scam" (cutting lounge costs).

Here's, though, another explanation. I remember when the EU first disapproved the merger of OA and A3 citing the lack of competition in the domestic market. Then, a couple of years later they did approve and I remember that, among others, there was some talk about OA being mostly responsible for domestic flights while all international ones would be taken over by A3. Could it be that this whole thing is simply a way to satisfy the merger conditions set by the EU? Again, this is sheer speculation!

Finally, yes, there are differences between A3/OA and the other big airlines that have partners outside *A. Yes, Eurowings has its own planes, and Austrian didn't own any planes for a couple of years, except for one just to show that they're still an airline. All corporations are trying their best to maximize their profit, and usually this is done on the expense of their customers or their personnel or both. In FT English, this is called "enhancement", the word also used by many of the airlines. For example, Air Dolomiti's flights, can be either "real" EN flights without any *A benefits to people, while others do grant those. Would a non-informed passenger know that? No, and (s)he certainly would not understand the reason. Yes, the planes are all greenish and have the EN livery, etc., similar in lack of logic to the A3 code-shared with and operated by OA, but flown in A3 planes. An airline that only flies from MUC to Italy half of its flights as LH and other not? Who knows the real reason (I, know, I know, maximization of profit for LH).

Venting helps reduce heart attacks, but speculation doesn't.

Xiaotung

This is precisely the reason. From what I have been told, even if you book with A3 flight number flying A3 metal, your boarding pass will still show OA flight number (maybe with "Sold As A3xxx" underneath?), consistent with flight being an OA codeshare flight. Perhaps this is the clue people should follow when determining whether it's a Star flight or not. Who operates the flight in a wet lease situation, strictly speaking, is irrelevant.

Vice versa, I know OA also operates some flights for A3 to/from Turkey and these flights are considered A3 and Star flights even thought they are operated by OA metal.

Don't forget. Star Alliance now has a Connecting Partner Model, where Star Gold will have access to benefits on a connecting itinerary, OA may be considering joining.

johnirvine

The Connecting Partner Model is not really relevant since what A3 (and other *A airlines) are trying to do is to cut costs. This CPM model is to allow smaller airlines to participate in *A without actually becoming a full member.

Exactly the same arguments appearing in this thread are repeated (and repeated and repeated) in the Thai Smile thread under Thai Airways. What happened 2-3 years ago in Thailand angered many non-Thai *G cardholders including myself.

If you book a return ticket on TG from Europe to Hat Yai or Udon Thani via BKK, the domestic sectors will be flown on Thai liveried aircraft with Thai crews. You will be checked in by Thai staff and the tickets will be issued on Thai stock. The flight number will also be TG. However, you will not be allowed to use the Thai lounge at BKK on the outward leg nor the domestic Thai lounge at the beginning of the inbound leg. All you will get is the extra bag on the inbound leg due to the MSC rule. You will be told that the domestic flights are actually operated by Thai Smile which is not part of *A.

Aegean has adopted this Thai/Thai Smile model in its entirety. If I were the CEO of A3, I would have done exactly the same. The average price of a return domestic ticket in Greece (and Thailand) simply cannot support lounge costs of €20 each way. Aegean is currently making a loss despite performing admirably along most other operating metrics. They desperately need to control costs and giving, say, LH/OS/TG/LX cardholders exactly the same benefits as we A3*G cardholders get on other 'non *A' airlines like Eurowings and Thai Smile is something we should not get too worked up about.

DELLAS

^ Add to that taxation and other work arounds.

My personal view is that OA should have been brought into Star Alliance by now. With current performance though its not a priority sadly.

SPlDER

Cutting costs this way is good from single airline point of view, but Star Alliance generally should forbid it. Otherwise customers will fed up such tricks, and move to other alliances.

ermis177

Move to other alliances? You must be joking! Have you seen the state of oneworld or skyteam? just visit one of BA's lounges or fly with Alitalia... Lets be honest, Star Alliance is the best so far.

NWIFlyer

You will find similar issues in all alliances, I'm sure (although my sense is, indeed, that probably Star is the worst for it at the moment). In oneworld, UL used the excuse that lounge refurbishment had been taking place to bar Y passengers on short haul (even international short haul) from the lounge at their hub in CMB. The refurbishment must be finished by now (it's been a couple of years), but all recent reports say the bar is still in place. Now, you're not talking about short flights connecting to local ones here - when it happened to me as a oneworld Emerald, I'd just come off a 13 hour flight from LHR, and was going on to India. The lounge was empty, so there was absolutely no capacity argument to be made.

No airline alliance has any real power over its members - what you see is merely an overarching marketing organisation that streamlines what's inside it for the benefit of its members, not a regulatory one. If a member moves a flight out to another carrier, there's nothing the alliance can do, and nor would it want to either.

A3*G passengers are only tolerated because of the overall value they bring to the airline, something a UA*G on a bi-annual trip to Greece certainly doesn't.

Xandrios

Cost cutting an sich is fine. In fact I would want the airlines I fly to do so, as it allows to drive down ticket prices. Not all cost cutting negatively impacts the flyer - for example, a way to cut costs is by re-negotiating airport fees, change fuel hedging tactics, update employee benefits, and so on. I want those things to happen - otherwise we'd soon have another Alitalia on our hands.

In the end it is up to the airline to decide on a service model that works for them. One that makes money for the airline, and one that offers competitive prices to the consumer.

Domestic flights within Greece are, especially in summertime, filled with one-time tourists. These are not returning pax that can be made loyal to the brand by offering lounge access. So why would you expect Aegean to offer lounge access (at 20 euro per visit!) to these pax, while the fare often is much less than that? Airport fees (especially in ATH) are incredibly high and offering lounge access to one-time visitors would simply be a loss making business.

M+B members though is another story. These are mostly people based in Greece. Taking a loss on some of these domestic flights by offering lounge access is much more acceptable, as these pax are frequent flyers with Aegean and make up the top few percent of best returning customers. Also the lounge access fees are much lower as only their own Aegean lounge is allowed to be used.

Keep in mind that this situation is sort of new, and mostly driven by the domestic competition. Ryanair (and the like) have forced down prices in a huge way. Therefore you could also look at it this way: Due to the price cuts required to stay competitive with Ryanair, fares have been lowered considerably. You are free to spend those savings on a lounge pass if that is important to you.

1353513636

I don't think of most one time tourists as *G. Are there any additional expenses to flying non elites on an *A flight.

N1120A

The arguments are interesting, but people seem to be missing something here - A3 is the one operating these flights. A3 owns OA, they own the aircraft, employ the crews and sell the tickets. It is simply not the same thing as Eurowings or some of the other examples.

The really stupid thing in all this is that one can't use the lounge connecting on the way in, but they can use it heading back out. MSC allows for people to avoid bag fees, if that is properly handled, but that is about it.

OA exists only on paper, and to operate Q400s on PSOs. The idea of OA as a mainline carrier is simply laughable.

Exactly

ATH-JTR is a 20 minute flight. In most situations, especially in high season, A3 is charging fares to the Cyclades that are commensurate to what HA charges for interisland service, which means these flights are highly profitable.

Exactly.

All Aegean domestics are operated by fake Olympic.

The LH lounge isn't really as good as the A3 lounge, but it is usually more empty.